Would you kindly help a newb out?


(Rob) #21

Well you say that but you really did go backwards by basically setting a starvation calorie limit and forcing it to fit within that. I have used that calculator and the whole BS about deficit is just that… CICO BS. The variables that actually drive energy conversion from food are so unpredictable person to person that the only thing you can guarantee is that severe restriction will provoke starvation response.
Metabolically healthy folks can eat nearly 4000 fat calories per day for weeks and not put on an ounce. If your basal insulin is above a certain level you can’t burn fat and you will start catabolizing protein and bones. Many people lose weight fast and consistently with no ‘deficit’ at all. Why not embrace the Keto logic? :thinking:

You go back on carbs in 6 months and it will all unravel anyway. :flushed:


#22

i AM learning and APPRECIATE every single response. please do not take my ‘trying to figure things out’ as being argumentative in any way.


#23

what calculator or ratio do you trust, Capnbob?


#24

what are the markers i should be looking out for?


(Rob) #25

I like that calculator… just don’t break it :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Put in zero deficit and see what it says. It will always offer less than 30g carbs and an appropriate protein level. Then experiment with the fat level based on satiety. It is important not to be hungry. It is not a good state to be in and trust me, when things kick in you will eat 1200 calories in one or 2 meals and be full for the day or even go 36 hours with no eating without even thinking. That is healthy (ironically), starting at that level is not.

Don’t rush it on old false logic.


(Zoe ) #26

Welcome. Can I suggest you check out this podcast. I would start with episode 89 and then the first few episodes on different topics. It also follows the journey of two people with their journey.

I would strongly suggest for the next few weeks that you only track carbs and then limit at 20grams and also your protein as you are concerned that it might be too much with your gout. You can drop it lower for your specific needs. You are likely someone who does better on lower protein. Then eat fat until you are full and satiated. After a while you will find that you are fat adapted and that you are not hungry and want to skip a meal. If/ When that happens you might find you naturally drop back to low cals because you insulin is now low and you can access your body fat for fuel. Thus you will be burning the fat and losing weight unless you are also putting on lean body weight which is also a plus.

You mention that you can be very focused with strong willpower. Use the show me the science section, other treads on this site and the podcasts to get you understanding of how insulin affects things and how CICO might not be so helpful. Then use that willpower to overcome the fear of fat and calories. I can think of at least two examples of people who have upped their fat and found the fat then come off their body. It seems so counter intuiative after years of eat less, move more.

Also someone mentioned Jason Fungs book. Most of the content is available on his blog. You can search for different topics he has a calories series.Below is the link

https://idmprogram.com/?s=calories

And for the podcast.

Good luck. Also for me I started and did not track, just counted carbs. I lost about 3kg then was steady for a while but the fat keeps coming of and my body composition is improving.

When I am eating fat to satiety I also find a lot of benefits with mood, not getting hungry etc and I really don’t think I would have seen those benefits if I was restricting my calories.

Keep digging!


(Chris) #27

I fasted 3 days a week and feasted 4. Anywhere from 4 to 5000 cal each day.


(Kenny Embry) #28

Wow, that sounds like my journey. I’ve been fasting Monday-Wednesday, and then eating keto the other four. I’m down about 35 pounds since October. I feel great.


(Richard Morris) #29

I wouldn’t tell anyone something like that unless they were unaware they were eating an apparent deficient, or toxic amount. You have roughly 68kg of lean mass, and are eating 1.1g/kg of protein … which is easily above a deficient amount (<57g), and well below a potentially toxic amount (>226g).

I know someone who gained weight for the first 6 weeks. The first weight loss is most likely a change in accounting as you drew down stored glucose preparing to start switching to being fueled on fat. It’s like a signing bonus you get when you switch teams, if you go back you have to give it up … but it’s not your salary that you get from showing up week in week out. That is the actual reduction in stored body fat.

Gout can get worse in the first few weeks of keto. The reason is in the early days you make ketones and you can’t use them so you pee them out. Oxalic acid competes with Acetoacetate (one of the ketone bodies) for filtration in the kidneys - so you can see a small increase in retention of oxalic acids which means more chance of precipitating out crystals in your joints. After a few weeks you start using your ketones and urine disposal drops and how your oxalic acids drop below what they were before keto.

So short time, maybe some gout symptoms, long term fewer … is my expectation.

68g to 102g would be in the ballpark. You could eat up to 225g but it would be wasting protein for energy and not burning fat.

All you need to do is lower carbs as much as you can, don’t aim to eat 20g, try to eat as few as you can - but try not to go over 20g. Protein is in a good range to start - you just need enough to not lose lean mass to start off. You can try playing around with upping or lowering protein later.

What we really need to talk about is fat. Fat is how we get our calories on Keto - we aren’t trying to get any from carbs, and we’re not eating protein to turn it into energy, we’re eating protein to build our bodies.

If you have a Fat macro that you are aiming to hit, then that would simply be a restatement of caloric restriction - but this time eating food that presumably has some satiety benefit that allows you to live with the restriction easier than caloric restriction of say a low fat diet.

This isn’t really how nutritional ketosis works.

The point is to let satiety determine how much fat you need. Not in a meal - I mean, you don’t eat pure fat, or rarely do. What you do is converge on the right amount. So you might make a meal using fatty meats and some low carb vegetables, and if you were still hungry after that meal you might next time add some butter to the vegetables, or a hollandaise sauce to the meat.

The reason you want to use satiety is because THAT is a calculus your body does to factor in all it’s access to energy from storage, it’s anticipated demands for energy, and if you meet satiety then your body does not need to make cost savings by lowering your metabolic rate, or scavenge other sources of energy such as using lean tissue to make extra energy to make up your shortfall.

And it could be that for a few weeks you don’t lose weight. Your body may not have access to enough body fat. In the early days you are a recent glucose burner, who is only just starting to begin the adaptation to become really good at burning fat for energy. THAT process takes 2-6 weeks of ultra low carb intake.

But when you are finally adapted to burning fat for energy you may go hours or even days between feeling hungry and you might become satiated earlier and you may just feel spontaneously like doing some exercise … you will find people think that this is obviously how a ketogenic diet works … it makes you eat less and move more.

But the reality is that a ketogenic diet releases access to energy from storage for the calculus of how much your body thinks it needs to eat, and how much energy it thinks you can spend - those (how much you eat and how much exercise you do) are effects of access to body fat for energy, not causes for using body fat for energy.


#30

@LSDMT I wont try to describe them myself as Im relatively new, so I will send you some links instead

Here’s the first: How to Tell if You're "Adapted"

And another: Am I Fat Adapted? Revisited!

And this, recommended in another thread: http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2016/01/dont-be-a-ketard1.html