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(Megan) #1

I talked recently in the carni thread about my 11 year old dog, Grace, having a massive abdominal bleed and an emergency splenectomy one week ago. My vets got the histology report today - Splenic Haemangiosarcoma. Median life expectancy after spleen removal is 1-3 months. Chemo could give her an additional 2-5 months, but it could also make her lousy (tho is generally tolerated much better in dogs than humans), and dogs have also been known to die from chemo complications.

It’s still sinking in. She’s recovering from the surgery well and overall looks a picture of health. Hard to imagine she could suddenly go downhill and die very soon after. Because the tumour wasn’t found until it ruptured and bled, metastatic spread began who knows how long ago. But it’s happened. This type of tumour is highly metastatic because it is a cancer of the lining of the blood vessels.

I’m going to zero carb her and try to starve the cancer cells. The kibble I sometimes feed her is very good quality and grain free, but it contains some carbs in the form of some veg, fruit and lentils. I’ve done a bit of reading tonight on keto for dogs with cancer, dropping her protein amount and significantly increasing her fat. It’s also calorie restrictive. I dropped her by a few kg 2 years ago to protect her joints because she’s a largish breed dog, so she’s lean but covered, I just don’t know if I want her to lose more. Another option is to just exclusively raw feed her and not worry if she’s in ketosis or not. Just feed her lots of high quality nutrition b/c maybe that will also help her to fight off the cancer to some degree.

I don’t know. Lots to think about.


#2

Your attitude is the right one, try to help her and who knows, maybe she is a survivor! I know exactly nothing about dog and little about human diseases but I know that there are special cases with a way longer life than expected. I hope she will be one of those!
And we know how important diet is… I have no idea what is best for her, I just glad you seemingly didn’t lose hope and really wish the best possible (borderline miraculous sounds good to me) for Grace!!!
:heart:


(Robin) #3

So sorry to her this, Megan. At the very least you will have time to shower Grace with love and comfort. It’s so very hard to know when to say when. Hopefully she’ll have many good days yet.


#4

:heart: ahh it is the worst new possible cause you do know you are battling something very tough but I applaud your efforts on feeding her just good ol’ meat and good fats and see if you can change her progression in any way. Your kibble sounds like a good choice but of course your feeding just real meat and fat could truly give her body an upgrade and maybe help her alot.

Sending hugs Megan…it is a tough place to be knowing you and her are facing a tough medical issue here!!! But you will do all ya can for her! She is lucky she has you thinking so much about her wellness!!


(Edith) #5

I’m sorry to hear things are not going well for your dog. We’ve now been through cancer twice with dogs and it is very hard. Both of them were on raw food diets.


(Karen) #6

Oh bless Gracie. Like the others I am no expert but what is the harm in trying with her diet as the diet she is on has not really helped her so far. I will keep her in my prayers and thoughts that whatever you decide to try may help restore her health. :heart::pray:


#7

Megan I’m so sorry to read this. I know how hard it is, I’ve got a nearly 12 year old with cancer and had 3 ops. We were given 6 weeks a year ago and she’s doing well on meat only. It’s definitely worth doing.
Sending you all hugs.


#8

You can only do what you can do, hope for the best and prepare for the worst. I’d do the same thing, you could also look at visionary pet foods, which is actual keto dog food. Give it a good fight!


(Megan) #9

She’s been 95% raw fed her whole life, has just been having a bit more kibble than usual the past few months since I got my rottie puppy who is on large breed puppy kibble at the moment. So food wise she’s always been well looked after. Going medical keto will require a big shift in macros to her usual raw food, and yes, zero kibble. We don’t have the Visionary brand here in New Zealand but I found a website called KetoPetSanctuary with some good info.

The vet is ringing back today to talk more. I want to know what stage the tumour is because that usually makes a big difference when it comes to life expectancy. Also if the abdo xray they did also got the lungs, as lungs are a very common site for secondaries. Plus if anything showed up on her liver in the xray. Another common site, as both are super vascular.

Thanks for all your thoughts and support. I feel numb, in shock. I was expecting another 4 years with her. Apart from an impacted anal gland that burst many years ago, she’s never had a sick day in her life.


(Megan) #10

Hi Victoria, did your dog also receive chemo and/or radiation, along with the surgeries?


#11

No. I stopped all meds/procedures after the last op as the risks outweighed the benefits for her. She’s insured so thankfully cost wasn’t important. With hindsight I’m glad we took this route but it’s a very tough individual decision to make. She’s still remarkably active and is a faster hunter than the two youngsters!
How is Gracie doing? X


#12

Megan, I am so very sorry. Your carnivore plan for Gracie sounds fantastic though, and who knows? It could yield some amazing results! Nothing wrong with being cautiously optimistic. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. In any event, you have a plan and you have time- which are opportunities to shower her with loving care- and let Gracie know how much she is adored.
I will keep you both in my prayers. Hugs and lots of love going your way!


#13

remeber also that pet lives are so shorter than ours and as we fight to prolong it they literally might be at that end of what they have in them thru nature.

everyone wants way more years with beloved pets but if the timeline of nature hits, it hits…and I know we can change some by food intake and more thru med support, in the end, the life span will be what it is and it sucks rocks. I know. Putting down my horses into the 30s was tough as crap but with good life/food/care they got that full length of time that horses kinda just get…so keep life in perspective at all times cause the minute we take on ANY pet we know the life line of it kinda truly ya know, and it stinks we do know that in a way…but always sending hugs and best wishes for you guys and that life lived on its timeline was a great life given by you!


(Megan) #14

Hi Victoria, I have decided not to go the chemo route and turns out it was a good decision. I was listening to a long interview with 2 of the guys from keto pet sanctuary last night (amazing dog cancer work) and one of them said chemo doesn’t work for the type of cancer Grace has, tho vets still offer it b/c they want to “do something”, or pet parents want the vets to 'do something".

I’ve been umming and ahhing - put her on a strict medical/cancer keto protocol or just raw feed her and toss a ton of nutrients her way. After the watching the interview, and reading some more, I’m going to go the keto route. It offers a lot of potential regarding outcomes, tho of course some dogs still die very quickly. The keto pet website has a calculator for the stage 1 diet, then you switch to the stage 2 macros for x months, then back to the stage 1 diet. I’ve joined their facebook support group and will get the exact details re time frames on each set of macros etc. But it’s super simple. Grace’s stage 1 diet is 450 grams 80/20 ground beef, 108.5 grams broccoli, 1 tablespoon of chia seeds per 40 pounds. No clue what the chia seeds are for, or the broccoli, but will find out. The dogs also need a mineral/electrolyte supplement, just as we do. I’m asking if bone broth is sufficient.

She’s recovering from the surgery and massive blood loss well. Appetite is back, sleeping/napping lots which is good. Took her and Lulu out yesterday and she did her usual trot around the park, peeing everywhere to let the local dogs know Princess Grace has been there.

Thanks SecondBreakfast!

Yes, pet lives are shorter than ours, but we’ve also drastically shortened them. There’s some good science behind cancer being a metabolic disorder, and we’ve messed up their diet just as we’ve messed ours up. The cancer may take her sooner than I want to let her go but I’m still going to fight hard for her.

I’ve been feeding her twice a day lately, just because I have a puppy. She’s back to once a day now, and I’m going to feed Lulu once a day too. Bodies can’t fight cancer well and all the other stuff they need to do when they are so busy digesting meals. I’m also switching Lulu to raw food. I got sucked into the whole grain free kibble is healthy, and whilst it is usually healthier (better ingredients) than all of the cheap grain based junk on the market it’s still full of carbs. I may also put Lulu on a standard keto diet at some point. She’s still growing (just gone 7 months) so some point won’t be for a good while.


#15

absolutely agree with that. we wreck the human body and we wreck the animal population’s bodies thru their food intake…no doubt about that!

Sounds like you are doing best you can and finding out great info to help her. Your efforts will give her a best way future :slight_smile:


(Marsha) #16

So very sorry to hear this. I lost a beloved dog (Chandrea’s Once in a Midnight Blue Moon, call name Luna) to hemangiosarcoma. It’s an ugly, ugly disease and nearly impossible to catch in time. Luna was also on a no grain, nearly carnivore diet and I often fed her a raw diet. I did try chemo with her for a short time and for what it’s worth, I think you’ve made a good call not going that route.

I don’t have any solutions, but I wish you and your beloved companion grace and peace in this difficult time.


#17

Sorry to hear about your dog. We went through something similar in 2018 when our previously healthy 4 year old dog woke up blind one day, literally out of the blue. She started seizing and had on MRI a diffuse mass in her brain. The vets treated with steroids and she could see again and because it was unclear whether it was a tumor or autoimmune. I did find the pet sanctuary website and tried the raw hamburger route. In her case the steriods made her hungry so it became impossible as I had children then and food was dropped and so on. She lived for 4 months and seemed to be getting better but the steroids caused a bleed and she went from being ok to gone in a day which was a mercy. Personally I would either do full keto or do what you had been doing. I do not think eating raw food that does not put her into ketosis will help but that is my lay opinion

Unrelated I have been going off reading about longevity, especially David Sinclair. A number of the supplements and drugs he claims to take say they have anti cancer properties. I have no idea if they work in dogs or are safe in dogs (or humans for that matter), but they include metformin and rapamycin (both prescription in the US, one cheap, one very expensive) and large doses of Resveratol among others.Since some researchers are using dogs in these experiments (I think the metformin one but I could be mistaken, I think there was a Peter Attia podcast about this) and finding possible decreases in all cause mortality, this may be an avenue to explore even as I do not specific recommendation

I think foodwise a lot of it is genetics or random luck. We recently had to say goodbye to a Boston Rat Terrier mix. He had dementia but was otherwise ok and his dementia was not long standing, started around age 15. Until then he would happily chase a ball in the yard all day. He was17 and we got him when he was about 10 or 12. His prior owners never fed him anything other than table scraps and their diet was very much SAD although good quality meats and balanced SAD meals (starch, greens and meats). He never ate dog food (his owners hated the smell or something, not for any reason).


(Megan) #18

Thanks Marsha and Saphire. Really sorry to hear about your dogs. It sucks sooo much :cry:


(Megan) #19

Hi again folks,

This posting is mostly going to be a vent. I’m stressed and annoyed and scared and frustrated and need to get some of it out.

When I first came across KetoPet Sanctuary’s website, and listened to some interviews on youtube, I was excited and relieved there was something I could do that might help Grace live longer. I read everything on the website then emailed them with some questions, and to access the macros and meal plans designed to give cancer a kick in the nuts (sorry guys), and joined their facebook support group.

13 days later I still haven’t heard anything back.

The so called facebook support group isn’t a support group, despite the website saying the longtimers and admin staff would help with any questions, concerns, need for encouragement etc. Apart from a couple of ppl saying they were really sorry about Grace’s diagnosis and an answer to a question about broccoli, the only other responses I have gotten are (1) Don’t feed the ketopet sanctuary meal plan, it isn’t balanced, instead go to this other facebook page and pay this dude a lot of money to custom design you a keto diet, and (2) Have you heard about kefir? I read something on the internet saying it’s good. (Kefir does not fit into the cancer diet protocols, in any way shape or form)

Every day 1 or 2 new members join with a heart breaking story about their dog being diagnosed with cancer, and like me they are getting no helpful information regarding the ketogenic diet for cancer.

So, thankfully knowing about keto, macros etc, and having found the url to the option 2 diet calculator (the cancer diet one) after reading screeds of old postings on their facebook support group, I have easily worked out how many grams of protein and fat they recommend per day, and how many grams of broccoli or red cabbage or green beans. Then I researched all essential micronutrients and what very friendly keto foods are rich in them. Then I went shopping.

I just finished making up 10 days of food, took me hoursssssssssssssss looking up nutrition analysis info on the net, calculating how much of each meat and offal I bought I’d add to the mix, exactly how much coconut oil and ghee I needed to add, once I’d worked out exactly how much fat each item of meat and offal had, then chopping and measuring and bagging it all up. I steamed 10 days worth of different veg, after working out exactly how many grams of each type I needed, and bagged them all up too. So, she’s set for 10 days and my brain and body is exhausted lol.

I found another youtube video, this time from some conference, where one of the canine oncologists hired by KetoPet Sanctuary, and the dude that put in the 6 million dollars funding, were giving presentations. I finished watching it so damn angry. The oncologist talked in great depth about how much constant tweaking they needed to do to the diet, and how the tweaking differed a lot dog to dog. The dogs had blood tests at least once a week, checking every possible thing diet affects, which informed the tweaking. Plus weight and energy level and general behaviour was constantly monitored, which also informed the tweaking.

Yet the website gives a 3 ingredient diet (3 the protein sources to choose from, 3 fat sources to choose from, and 3 dif veg to choose from - with the amount of fat varying depending on whether you choose 80/20 ground beef, ground chicken or ground turkey).

Umm? What if Grace’s diet needs tweaking? And if it does, how am I meant to know what to add (supplements) and increase and or decrease?

Supplements for dogs aren’t a thing in New Zealand, which is adding to my stress. I’m trying to cover as many bases as I can via diet but we all know going keto messes with our electrolytes etc. I’m salting her food but she probably needs more help than just salt can provide. I’m looking at human supplements but I have no clue if they are safe to give to dogs, and how bioavailable they are to dogs. Yup, floundering out here all on my damn own. I’m making her bone broth and am hoping it ticks some essential boxes.

The dude who put the 6 million in didn’t do it because he wanted to help dogs. His interest is in how a ketogenic diet can help humans with various diseases. The dogs, as loved and amazingly well looked after as they were by all the staff there, were just “test subjects” to this dude. Each dog cost about $100,000 to put thru the program. I’m wondering if, despite info to the contrary on their website about how they’re here to help Jo and Josephine public put their dogs on “medical keto” for their cancer or epilepsy etc, the reason I haven’t heard anything back from them is KetoPet Sanctuary no longer exists as an active endevour, b/c the dude and all the medical folks have gotten the info they were seeking and have moved on to focusing on humans.

I still think their ketogenic cancer diet has the potential to help her, there’s no denying the results they got were really really good for quite a lot of the dogs. She may still die soon, but I want to do what I can to give her as much time as the cancer will allow. She’s such an amazing dog, and has always been soooo healthy. Maybe she will be one of the dogs who can fight this if given the right nutrition and if put on this strict keto protocol for 4 months, then moved to a higher protein but still ketogenic protocol.

Thanks for listening. I feel better having written that all out.


#20

Hi Megan,

How is Grace?
Sorry you’re going through this, I know how difficult it is.
My older dog is called Lilly, she’s a blue cocker spaniel. She had her last operation a year ago now. She has anal cancer. If we remove anymore anal gland she is likely to be incontinent which would affect her quality of life.
I don’t use FB but I did all the research like you have and settled on a protein (chicken/beef/white fish) plus steamed cabbage or broccoli. We can’t feed her raw as it causes additional digestive strain. I feed her 3 times a day but that works as I have two puppies on that routine. I feed liver once a week. I don’t feed her biscuit/kibble/dried foodLilly would eat 24/7 if allowed to, she’s always been like that!
I wouldn’t worry about exact amounts, you know what volume Grace needs and likes. Nobody is better placed to know more than you.
Sending love and hugs.