Why we stall

[Andrea_Johns]

Thank you, Richard, for your insight. I learned about 2ketodudes from a YouTuber named Christina. She was very complimentary about the level of support and information available on these forums. I am pleased to report she was absolutely correct…that is also my experience.

[richard]

Thanks Andrea - we’re just trying to pay it forward for people who helped us reason our way out of the box that Diabetes was leading us into.

[Andrea_Johns]

I went to the Dr today and discussed my frustration with weight loss. We talked about using Metformin. She thought it was a good idea to use it in my weight loss efforts. I got the Rx. I take 500mg 1x/day. Hopefully, this will reduce that basal insulin and make the fat more available for fuel. I’m cautiously hopeful.

[Barbara_Greenwood]

A better strategy is to adequately fuel your body from dietary fat, eat your maintenance amount of protein, reduce carbohydrates as much as you can and let TIME at a lower chronic level of insulin reduce your insulin resistance so you need to make less. And you can try some of the exercise, fasting and pharmaceutical strategies to reduce your insulin resistance.

I was prompted to come back to this by episode 63, in which @richard said that fat cells take ten years to die. Please tell me I don’t have to wait ten years till I reach a point where my fat cells work better and maintaining my lower weight becomes easy…

I’m interested in the idea of a stall being a good thing in people with T2D. My first 6 months on keto I improved my BG’s massively (of course) and lost 4 stone/56lb/25kg by eating pretty much whatever I wanted as long as it was keto. But from New Year the weight loss just… stopped. I bobbled around within a three pound range.

The past week it has started moving again… but I think that’s probably because I made a conscious decision to stop snacking, and stick with two meals within a 6 hour window. I am so stuffed at dinner… a bit of anxiety maybe about the fact I won’t be eating again until lunch tomorrow. But, morning after morning, the scale is going down again.

[richard]

Please tell me I don’t have to wait ten years

Well 10% of your fat cells were born 9 years ago so they’ll all be retiring to a well deserved apoptosis very soon and you’ll have a new batch of youngsters. And another 10% were born 8 years ago … etc

That’s the worst case scenario, it could take 10 years to fully turn over all your fat cells. But you can still empty the ones you have which it seems the intermittent fasting is allowing you to do. It’s that 18 hours of the day where you aren’t making insulin in response to a meal that is helping I reckon.

KC&KO

[richard]

BTW Interestingly we found out how long fat cells live (10 years) and how often they turnover their triglycerides (6 times in 10 years) by measuring radioactive carbon from nuclear weapon tests appearing in the fats we store.

Dynamics of human adipose lipid turnover in health and metabolic disease.

[Barbara_Greenwood]

how often they turnover their triglycerides (6 times in 10 years)

… or more often, if you’re prone to weight cycling, perhaps?

Between Jan 2012 and July 2013 I lost 7.5 stone (105lb) in weight through a lowish fat wholefoods diet and insane exercise… but over the following 3 years, succeeded in finding 6 of them again. So at least some of the contents of my fat cells is not as old as the rest of it!

6 times in 10 years… whirr, click… once every 20 months, then. I’ve read that fat cells also store hormones and toxins. If you clean up your diet so you’re taking in less processed crap, additives etc, that gives you a ballpark of how long it might be till most of the crap has left your body, maybe?

[yi5hedr3]

Congrats on the 150lb loss! That’s great!!! View some of Dr. Ron Rosedales videos on youtube where he
talks about MTOR and cancer. Reducing your protein is most critical!

[BidNow]

The thought that adipose tissue now has a 10 year life expectancy is far different than the prior teachings that fat cells stick around forever. To me, that never made sense, as in why would the body create new fat storage containers with no purpose.

The reason I am posting here (in a somewhat dormant thread) Richard, is that I would like you to consider a making podcast specifically on this topic. It seems to me that you and Carl and I and Jimmy Moore all seem to be in somewhat the same situation. At 58 years old and 6’ tall, I ballooned to 352 pounds going through my divorce. Then, 32 months later, I got down to 192 pounds, 26 BMI, and perhaps 26% Body Fat. Since then (August 2015) I have yo-yo (pretty much) keto dieted down to 174 pounds, but also back up to 217 pounds and 26%+ to almost 22% BF. To me, this seems clearly related to Leptin and body weight set point or settling point, which is not very well understood or researched and not very much discussed in the ketogenic diet world. I personally do not believe that Insulin is the Master Hormone, and instead believe that the brain controls things, and Insulin is just a signaling hormone, the same as Leptin and Ghrelin, etc.

I also believe that a ketogenic diet is useful for facilitating a young man to get down to an athletic 15% BF level. From what I’ve read, perhaps for us old guys, a 23% BF level is the equivalent to that 15% BF level from younger days. Unfortunately, that seems to belittle the status of Mark Sisson, Luis Villasenor and other lower BF% older guys… All things considered, what I see most often is the creation of skinny-fat people who balloon quite quickly from following the ketogenic diet.

I too have done a LOT of research in this area. And while I appreciate your recipes and weekly status reports, what I do not see is a challenging goal in mind. To me, it was clearly beating the criteria associated with Metabolic Syndrome. I never ate much fruit, which might have kept me from full blown T2D like you, and recovery from that condition is indeed most important. However, next, it should be noted that the Work Health Organization defines obesity as being over 25% BF as a man, so that does diminish the value of weight and BMI. In addition, the next goals for a man of having a (correct) waist measurement of less than 1/2 of height and a Waist to Height ratio of less then 90% have proven elusive to me thus far. I would personally prefer to travel this path with you and Carl if you had such a goal in mind, and not simply riding your bike, coding, and cooking some keto meals.

So, it seems to me that Jimmy Moore’s pushing around a tractor tire behind his chicken coop, any your riding your bike around the lake are not enough for us (formerly) obese guys to join the likes of Mark and Luis. Like many posters here (and on Reddit/keto) I have been overweight and obese and morbidly obese for most of my life. I have been under 25 BMI and under 23% BF for about 2 years out of the last 48 years, so it is clearly time for me to get a grip. I guess I just think that I would personally benefit if you two would also try to move to the next level and provide guidance and motivation, as I am getting angry at seeing Brenda kicking our collective keto asses…

[richard]

Unfortunately, that seems to belittle the status of Mark Sisson, Luis Villasenor and other lower BF% older guys

Luis is 5’ 5". He may not be looking for advice, but I have an approach that he could follow to be taller … and I should know because I am 5’11" so obviously I am doing something right. All he and anyone else who aspires to be 5’11" needs to do is eat EXACTLY what I eat, and do EXACTLY the same exercise as I do, and then chose parents more like mine - Simples!

See that’s the one factor that we often forget about when trying to measure ourselves against others - genetics. My father played representative Rugby (Queensland) and I inherited his build. My genetics gave me a body that is strong, but also dense. I have for example never been able to naturally float, even in the dead sea which is extremely salty and when I was at my most obese (and least dense).

My lean mass is 80.38 kg. At my height my ideal body weight should be 59kg to 79kgs. So if I were somehow able to reduce my body fat to an impossible 0% I would still be 1.38 kgs overweight. Clearly BMI and ideal weight for height models are ridiculous. That just isn’t how humans are built.

Currently I have just under 22% body fat. Which on a 52yo former diabetic may be a reasonable amount of body fat, although as a diabetic it is all central, my legs are 9% BF. My 22kgs of body fat allows me to ride for 4-5 hours without worrying about fueling, I can fast with relative ease when I want to to lower my insulin.

And that there is my primary goal, reducing Insulin exposure not body weight, not even increasing lean mass. My fasting insulin is currently 18.7 mIU/l, I would gladly exchange 10kgs of lean mass if I could get my fasted insulin below 4 (yes I know that is not how it works). I would even be satisfied gaining back every one of the almost 100 pounds of body fat I have lost, if I could reduce my insulin - because THAT ultimately is what exposes us to cardio vascular disease and all the microvascular complications of diabetes.

The good news is 2 years ago my fasting insulin was 30 … and incidentally I have never been lighter in 30 years than I am right now … so keeping calm and ketoing on is a strategy that is working for me, even if that does not make for exciting radio … errr … podcasts.

[VLC.MD]

If you want to lose 35kgs and keep it off for 3 years as I have done then you don’t do that by setting up an energy deficit, you do it by setting up a surplus of energy by lowering insulin and letting your body manage the calculus.

That’s interesting and clear.
what surplus have you used ?

I see men do really well on Keto. I see you did well on Keto. I see you have a lot of muscle. Is muscle mass a key to your formula ?

[richard]

I’m not exerting a surplus, just eating to satiety - trusting my body to know how to optimize for survival.

The first year, and 9 before I went keto I was actively lifting with a PT 4x a week … so at my apex (or maybe my nadir) when I looked like this

I was still lifting 4 times a week, and cycling about 30k a week.

Since I’ve been in Canberra (2 years) I have been lifting at home (dumbbells and body weight) sporadically, but cycling much more.

So yes there is no doubt that my body composition is unique and probably what worked for me will work differently for everyone else - but I believe that all our bodies all can optimize for survival when we get derangements (like carbohydrates for someone who is insulin resistance) out of the way.

[MearaM]

OK, I’ve been strict KETO for 6 months and still in a perpetual stall. I have very little appetite and 12, 18 and 24 hour fasts are pretty easy. My cholesterol is a bit high so I am off eggs (very sad) and red meats (not so bad). I RELIGIOUSLY log my food and weight to keep myself honest, but the endless stalls are really bumming me out. I drink tons of water and also take Ox Bile (cuz I have no Gallbladder)
Am I eating too few calories? bad macros?
I am 238 now and have another 75 pounds to lose.
I am losing about 1 pound every two weeks at this point if I am lucky, some weeks nothing at all.
Please, any ideas or suggestions would be a huge help.

Here is my total consumption and macros for 7 days.

[Dan_Dan]

You are starving up your calories to 1500 at minimum

What causes a stall

1. Not enough Fat - 60% to 80% Fat - more Fat will accelerate Fat Adaptation

2. Too much Insulin
   A) - Keep Carbs (Net) at or under 20g
   B) - Too many meals (snaks count) keep to a maximum of 3 meals
   C) - Eating window too large it should be 8Hrs. maximum the smaller the better

3. Calorie restriction causes the body to go into starvation mode
   A) Ladies should eat at least 1500Kcals to 2000kcals Macros 5 / 22 / 73
   B) Men should eat at least 2000Kcals to 2500kcals Macros 5 / 25 / 70

4. Lean Protein - Keto is ‘Moderate Protein’. Lean meat is high in Protein and low in fat. ‘Fatty Meat is Moderate in Protein and Moderate to High in Fat’ and preferable.

5. Water Weight
   A) The body retains lots of water on a SAD diet- On a Ketogenic WOE the first weight loss is most likely water weight.
   B) Keep water at two liters a day until Fat Adapted.

6. Some within 40 Lbs or less of their Ideal Weight/BMI tend to struggle with results. Have patience you will see results.

My cholesterol is a bit high

kCKO (Keep Calm Keto On)

“May the Force (fat adaption) be with you”

IF/EF Keto WOE is Self-Discovery

Good luck and much success in your journey in IF/EF Keto WOE

[Ajax]

Great feedback!

[Selena]

yes, great feedback @Dan_Dan --a lot of information.
I would guess that it is the calorie restriction every day that is catching @MearaM up. Six months of limited calories every day has slowed down your metabolism and now your body has leveled-out. Mixing it up will help. Do some alternate day fasting, or an EF to kick it back into gear and then mix low calorie days with high calorie days at random (unless you feel comfortable doing fasts more regularly, like a 2-5 or something…)

[MearaM]

Thanks to Dan_Dan and Selena. I m really not hungry, but I will try to figure out how to get more calories. Thanks for the cholesterol vid. The conflicting information and fear mongering the MDs do is criminal.

Onward.

Meara

[Lueloff]

@richard what is That threshold? Is it different for everyone?

as long as you keep insulin below the threshold that inhibits the carnitine shuttle.

[Lueloff]

Fasting works for me to reduce my fasted insulin, but that number for me appears to still be too high to burn a lot of body fat.

@richard
Is there a number to shoot for (for fasting insulin?) I thought I heard you say (on one of your podcasts) that fasting insulin above XX (can’t remember the #) will not allow you to burn fat. What is that #?

[Vega]

I seem to recall he might have said 14 is where it’s hard to burn fat.