I had an interesting conversation about the 20 grams or less of carbs per day with someone over the weekend, and I thought it was a legitimate question.
Why is the “under” 20 grams of carbs rule applied evenly to all people? Should it be under 10 for people who are more Obese, less obese? Is it just a general number to stay under? Is it really an N=1 thing and under 20 just seems to be the number to shoot for?
It’s low enough to insure that virtually everyone, no matter what their Metabolic State, quickly depletes glycogen and thereby becomes lipolytic. Once that happens, the positive changes begin.
All calorically restrictive diets eventually deplete glycogen. Usually causing prolonged withdrawl symptoms if based on carbs during that time. It also explains the magical initial weight loss claims of plans advertised on TV, as the weight loss is mainly glycogen, not fat.
Most people get into Ketosis at this level, very low indeed. And it allows enough vegetables also. Some, especially the sporty insulin sensitive ones, do well at higher carb levels like 100 gm. Still some have realised that even at the very low end of 20 gm, they still have issues and have gone off carbs completely to zero carb / carnivorous diet. YMMV.
This.
And some people can get into ketosis at higher levels of carbs. 20 is the level where most people most of the time will get ketogenic.
I suspect, in his clinical practice, Dr. Atkins found than 20 got the majority of his patients turning their pee strips purple. This was back in 1972 or so, so it was all pee strips. In the intervening 20 years, I think Dr. Atkins found that fiber shouldn’t count, which is why net carbs was not in the Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution (the book my dad did), but it was in the DANDR (the book I did, from 1994). In DANDR (and maybe in DADR), there was the Atkins fat fast for folks who couldn’t turn the strip purple with a 20g limit and coming from three cups of veg/day, plus eggs and cheese.
The Eades, in protein power, have heavier folks start at 30g and healthy folks start at 55g.
I suspect that 10g would get nearly everyone, but it would not be a good sales pitch, as folks like my wife like to have a lot of green things.
Dr. Atkins sold the most books. The Eades sold the second most. Everybody else is far behind. Dr. Atkins version is much more studied, as it’s what Dr. Westman and Drs. Phinney and Volek based their research on. Thus, by virtue of selling the most books and being “first past the post” into the public consciousness, 20 is where nearly everyone starts.
If it works, why do people get bent about it.
it is a level that is not to restrictive, giving you many vegetable choices, but is low enough to make the body do the right thing. I have found very good results, maybe not as fast of a weight loss as some, but have not counted a single thing. I did not weigh before starting and have not weighed since but i do need a few more holes in my belt. If I had to count probably already would have stopped.
Not counting is the best part, just eat good whole foods, stop the sugar, grains, and roots, and you can eat lots of veggies and be under 20g, just make sure you eat the fat at first to get you fat burning machine running. Just like having to prime the pump.
I read a post on these forums once saying that Richard and Carl really wanted to say 0g, but thought it would put too many people off. Whether they really thought that or not, it might still be a good point. It almost certainly would have put me off.
I started thinking in terms of LCHF, and Dr. Phinney’s lectures on YouTube at the time all talked about keeping carbohydrate under about 100g a day. That may have reflected the fact that he and Jeff Volek were dealing with fat-adapted athletes, because I notice that now, on the Virta Health site, where he deals with diabetics, he is recommending under 50g.
I suspect that I might be able to handle a larger intake of carbohydrate, but 20g gives me a good target to aim for. I actually do think in terms of 0g these days, because it makes staying under 20g more likely; if I aimed for 20g I’d always exceed that level, and perhaps not always with impunity. I’d probably screw myself up if I made a commitment to being ZC, though—I have a nasty sub-conscious, lol!
I think the 20 g limit is intentionally low to not allow it to become an allowance - higher levels might lead to “how many squares of chocolate can I have?”, “is half a can of soda okay?” type questions. It needs to be more than zero - which is pretty much the carnivore diet(?) I think incidental carbs in vegetables such as leafy greens and broccoli is where they want the 20 g to come from - and even then, the number is low enough to rule out things like sweet potato (as it probably should if your goal is ketosis).
But isn’t having allowance making the life more wonderful? Restrictive life is not fun. <_<
Because it’s stated on page 44 line 60, of the Official tm Keto Rule Book.
Just kidding, it varies for people, 20 is recommended, but some can stay in ketosis with 50 or more.
@cloudy I don’t know. “Having” to eat bacon is pretty wonderful to me!
But seriously, I know what you mean, and if I made a commitment to never eating carbohydrate again, I’d end up at the nearest Dunkin’ Donuts, buying out their stock. (Seriously, no joke.) So what I do is to postpone the next glazed doughnut or Danish or chocolate cake or bowl of oatmeal or whatever till tomorrow. I can always have it, just not right now. It worked with alcohol all those years ago, and it seems to be working with sweets and carbs today. 
… Having to eat bacon? heh… It is not valid as I am not able to make a tasty bacon(at the moment). Condolence to me, thanks. <_<
Seriously though, I am also postponing “giving up” at the moment. <_< As in, postpone till mid-autumn to see if it is suitable. If still not suitable, then I will just f it and bye, go for my own style(eat whatever I like) instead of the correct style(eat whatever is good).
Actually, I find that same mentality works well when I decide to fast. I can eat, just not now. And then I just go get busy doing something else and quickly forget about eating for a while.
I’ve heard 20g is a guide too. It works as a goal for me because I am surprised when I log foods and learn of hidden carbs–and I’m 10 months into Keto.
Psychologically telling me 0 carbs is a setup for failure. I’ve been learning my Keto Life is a series of fits and starts as I deal with the learning and healing from a lifetime of trauma and poor choices. Also discovering addiction as a part of my life.
So I agree with others about the recommendation helping to offset “restrictive eating”
20 g is not written in stone.
Some do 20 NET g, others 20 g. I have seen many references to 30 g, again, could be net or simply g.
I don’t think there is a magic number. I stay in nutritional ketosis, and I vary from 10-50 grams per day, been in maintenance for over a year now. I don’t think I am a snowflake either, plenty of others do same or similar, some are good to 150 g. DNA and all kinds of stuff comes into play.
I’ve not been aiming for <20grm carbs for 10 or 12 weeks or so since I decided to give keto a break. However, I tend to stay around 50grm or so pr day through working week, and up to 150 on weekends.
This last Sunday, I went overboard somewhat and saw 3000+ calories and near 300carbs, little fiber.
Monday omad 20hrs fasted, Tues 24hrs fasted, checked ketones as thought it seemed pretty easy to get through day and had 1.3 on the meter. Now, I was keto for a good 10 or 12 months previous, off maybe 4 or 5 times through year for no more than a week.
I’m maintaining, not overweight, apart from high Triglycerides which are coming down it seems but still keeping an eye on that.
So I say you have to experiment to find what works for you depending on your goals.
\v/
I like the 20 net carbs level because it raises the stakes, paradoxically makes me more dedicated. There is this magic keto prize for staying strict even nobody really knows if it’s so important. If you fall off the wagon may be it takes days to fix. Is that true? I don’t know but it keeps me vigilant. I started this to get lean and keep the metabolic boggie man at bay. Now I want a new relationship with food, something I didn’t anticipate.
For me keto, exercise and restricted eating are one program. (Reducing the number of times I eat from 35 times a week to 12 is amazing. Being lean enouogh to see the muscle I’m workinng in the gym is kind of nice too.)
Even though I’ve been hitting 20 net carbs for a couple of months in the last few days my legs are heavy and I’m lethargic for no reason I can see. So I reduced activity and left calories on the high side, a nutrient rich rest perhaps. I’m sure this will pass. My life has too much going on but, good news, the shop is slowing down and most everybody is going down to 10 hour work days so I’ll have time for the food, the exercise, AND sleep.
It’s just about getting into ketosis. You could start everyone at 50g and get most of them into ketosis, but the ones that didn’t would be put off by their failure. Then they’d either give up or they’d go through the trial and error process of slowly lowering their carb intake until they went into ketosis. That could take quite a while, and then they’d still have the fat adaption process to wait through.
It’s better to start at 20g, get 99.9% of the people who try keto into ketosis, and then work up from there to find their limit. That way they get to start losing weight immediately, and the time they spend experimenting with carbs will be spent getting fat adapted as well. Another benefit of a lower carb limit is that it will serve to break people from the habit of eating sweet foods. 20g just isn’t enough to cover more than incidental carbs from savory foods. It forces you to cut out sweets entirely and learn to live without them, at least until you learn the ins and outs of sugar free sweeteners.
So I really don’t think 20g is any kind of magic number. The number of carbs a person can have while staying in ketosis will always be unique to their physiology. It is a number that makes sense when you consider that you just want to catch the most newbies possible in the net of ketosis though. You get them into ketosis, let them see that they can make a low carb diet work, and let them start enjoying some of the early benefits of the WOE. After that you just let them sort out the details.