Why has Diet Doctor gone all in on protein and fiber?

(Bob M) #1

Take a look at this from Diet Doctor:

image
image.jpg810×667 138 KB

So, asparagus is better for weight loss than eggs? If I want to lose weight, I shouldn’t eat pork ribs or hot dogs?

I am a big believer in higher protein. But when I went keto, I lost a ton of weight initially eating pork ribs, hot dogs, cream, butter, and the like. A ton of weight. And fast.

Now, my weight loss slowed and I found when testing whether high protein caused blood sugar rise (it did not for me), I found high protein to be satiating.

And I don’t believe that eating a meal or meals of pork ribs or hot dogs is going to slow my weight loss. I also don’t believe protein satiation is that great. I can eat two meals of high protein, low fat, but if it’s a birthday and we have ice cream “cake” (two layers of ice cream separated by a thin crunchy middle), I’ll eat two pieces and want a third. Even on that chart, I rarely eat blueberries because I usually eat them with yogurt, and I’ll eat two bowls of them and want a third. I can’t eat bell peppers unless they are well cooked. Otherwise, they cause gastrointestinal issues. And I wouldn’t eat chickpeas if you gave me money. (And why is a “chocolate bar” something that’s not what I would call a chocolate bar?)

Anyway, what happened to Diet Doctor? I know that the lead guy went on a higher protein diet and lost some weight, then became enamored with Ted Naiman (believes protein is good, fat and – too many – carbs are bad). But to attempt to create a “satiety index” is a fool’s errand. What is satiating to some is not going to be satiating to others.

(Marianne) #2

When I started, dietdoctor was instrumental in my success (and this forum). There was so much information, including videos from the experts, on the science behind LCHF and how to do it. It is nothing like it used to be. As far as I’m concerned, they sold out. I wish a few of the doctors would break off and create a new website that is like the original format. I guess there’s no money in that.

(Doug) #3

“Extra firm” tofu, huh? Would not-so-firm tofu be over to the left? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

#4

Me neither. I actually KNOW it’s not how it works.
I actually have some more complex but vaguely similar idea in my mind. It just means I need to be careful with the “worse” items and I don’t think anyone sane and not very ignorant believes we must live on asparagus and chicken breast ONLY for the optimal fat-loss :wink:

But even the same protein/calories food can be satiating and good for fat-loss or not so much, it is individual but there are some common things. Most people whose experiences I know regarding satiation from their meat items, consider beef more substantial than chicken. Pork is probably in-between for me too but some people don’t find it satiating while I do but probably not as much as beef or not just any pork is as good… I easily overeat pork shoulder but lean pork is just perfect if my goal is fat-loss or just good, easy satiation. I still need some fat but no way I don’t get it while fatty pork may bring too much. Or maybe not BUT if I add 10-12 eggs, it ruins my day. I don’t consider eggs bad, carbs are way worse (any carby plants) - but probably nearly any meat is better
and fatty meat AND eggs AND fatty dairy… That won’t work. Because my energy need, goal, protein need, taste and satiation is like that, it’s highly indiividual. You can’t draw a pic and say it’s like that. It’s way more complex.
Our diet matters a lot too, of course we can’t eat fat galore if we eat high-carb too and our energy need is small and we want some speedy fat-loss… But it may have an important role in some ketoers’ fat-loss journey. Amounts matter too. And the presence of fat-fast days that I like now… I realized I have 2 ways to eat in a huge deficit in some days (I wouldn’t and couldn’t do it all the time): very high-fat items or bigger focus on leaner items. But I only can do lean days since I have very fatty ones. So even for the same person, lean and very fatty (way above 90% in calories. the potato chips and chocolate bar in the bottom left is adorable, my energy dense food is on another level :wink: ) may be great for fat-loss.

Blueberry and carrot is a bit stupid there… They have sugar… And we usually don’t eat them galore. It’s just a tiny thing, not our FOOD. We can’t get satiated by them (well I can’t). That is just a negligible (or not, sugar can make huge hunger, fruit is good at it) little something.

Your example only shows that ice cream makes you hungry, not that protein doesn’t make you satiated. I can eat the most satiating big fatty protein rich meal ever - and still can ruin it with carbs. Or at least I did it once, I am not prone to eating some sugary dessert right after a biggish carni meal but I did it once and got hungry and needed more food. Without it the carni meal would have kept me well satiated for almost a day, most probably.
But just protein, without enough fat therefore calories definitely isn’t enough for me, I stay hungry or if I manage to get satiated, I get hungry again real soon. Makes sense, my body knows it needs fuel, not just some protein.

Oh it’s not as bad as it could be :smiley: But I can relate :smiley: Definitely not a good, fat loss helping thing with its high carb content… And it’s not even tasty… What about tofu? :smiley: I refuse to eat that more than the chickpeas… Well I dislike chicken breast too but if I would get it for free, I could make it edible in small amounts and at least it’s normal food just with a weird texture and way too low fat content so I would rather fast for 3 days than eating a lot of chicken breast… (Then I would get paranoid about my muscle loss, there is a reason I don’t do 2 fat fast days in row ever.)

(Geoffrey) #5

Sounds like big agriculture may be funding them.

(Bob M) #6

@OldDoug Those 4 right top meals are not great. When I think “filling”, tofu is the last thing I would think of. In fact, I wouldn’t even think of it at all. Does anyone eat tofu? (I know some people do, but to me, lean beef would be 1000x better than tofu, with way more vitamins and minerals that are actually available. Put beef where tofu is, and that’s at least reasonable.)

@Shinita The theory is that lowered protein is what causes us to overeat, and eating enough protein stops that. You don’t have to believe me. Here’s an overview:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oby.22531

image

I’m not a fan of this hypothesis, even though I like protein. Had a birthday party last night, had a slice of ice cream pie, then was starving so I ate some cherries, then had to eat a Maria Emmerich pudding. Starving. And that’s after eating 3 hamburgers and a hot dog.

The idea that protein somehow overcomes a mixed eating environment, with carbs for instance, is wrong, at least for me. In a low carb environment, it can work, but that’s because it’s a low carb environment. It’s the low carb, and any effect of protein is on top of that.

And all of the people out there eating high fat, lower protein are further evidence against this theory.

Here’s what I think happened. The two main people are Ted Naiman and whoever the original “diet doctor” is (I can’t remember his name right now). The are both (1) male and (2) have higher muscle mass. Both of them did well eating higher protein. So therefore they think everyone should eat higher protein.

And they think that “fibrous” vegetables increase satiety for some reason. (Last night, we made a ton of vegetables, which I grilled and ate some of – no evidence to me they caused satiety.) And for them, that’s probably true. They eat some lean meats and vegetables and get full.

I guess I’m too scientific. If I find a theory that fails once, it fails. I ate a very good, higher protein diet before having a slice (ONE slice) of ice cream. It was downhill from there. Whatever “satiety” that protein and vegetables causes was obliterated by a single slice of ice cream pie.

If the idea is that having people eat more protein and more vegetables is suddenly going to cause people to lose tons of weight, it’s wrong. For me, I need low carb/keto first, as without that, weight loss does not happen for me.

#7

The first part: Yes, it’s common as far as I know. It’s glaringly true in my case. Until I am below 120-130g protein for a day, I keep eating because I keep getting hungry. (Except on a fat fast or fasting day. Those are special.) If I meet this requirement, I have chances. But I won’t automatically stop eating just because my energy needs are met, I doubt many people function that way… I need my fat too. And I can keep eating protein anyway, I slow down above 200g and always stop at/around 250g, no matter how much fat I had. But if my fat is too low still (it’s extremely unlikely but possible), I am hungry but desire only/mostly fat.

Many of us can have zillion reasons to overeat, hunger is pretty valid and just a bunch of protein can’t solve it. By the way, (plant) carbs always were a very common reason for my hunger and overeating. Whatever my other two macros did. It happened on keto and low-carb too so I didn’t need the carbs to be high. Whenever I overeat on carnivore, I can’t blame the carbs, no matter how much carbs I eat. It’s the wrong, too fatty, unsatiating, sometimes too tempting items in that case.

Even the first part isn’t always true. Many people manage to undereat protein and possibly calories too but it’s very common for protein, apparently. So of course we can’t state things in general, people are just too different and while protein is important in satiation, there are many other factors and even the protein one may not be in effect…
But protein IS important in it and anyway, we need it in a decent amount so it’s good to focus on it.
Thankfully it doesn’t need we should avoid fats just because our goal is losing fat…

I wonder about it sometimes. I had it in miso soup before. It’s NOT GOOD. So I rather stopped eating miso soup ( it’s so tasty though… but couldn’t handle the yucky tofu ) as I couldn’t replace the tofu with something enjoyable.
But some people apparently eat the stuff. I saw recipes with it.

Quite right and it has a great protein/energy ratio too. Maybe they wanted to be nice to the vegans or something. Vegetarians have lovely nutritious tasty animal protein sources though most of them aren’t lean. I couldn’t avoid eating very fatty as a vegetarian* - I had no pure gluten yet and even many of my plant protein sources were very fatty - , it’s easier on carnivore. Not like I often do that, mind you but there are more palatable options. I usually just use them to allow more cream and butter and scratchings and the like, not making my day lean though I experiment with that too now.

*I know it’s possible to eat adequate/high protein and low fat as a vegetarian but it just wasn’t my style, okay? It went against my tastes.

I am sure it works for some people. I heard about fiber causing satiation. It never did in my case. I mean, I can eat A TON of it (like what is normally adviced to people for 2-3 days, in one sitting) and no effect. Exactly zero.
Vegs are worse as they are carbs so they make me hungrier. No matter if I eat a lot of fat along with it, I need protein too. And I need less food without the vegs, they truly just add some extra calories and extra hunger. At least I experienced that many times, I am sure sometimes it’s not quite that as things are just too complex when it comes to our satiation.
Another problem with vegs than they (just like protein) bring very much fat (I never mastered the art of eating vegs without lots of fat). And it’s added fat, the worst kind for me satiation wise. Not a good idea. Oh and plant carbs changes me for the worse, bad desires, worse decision making… But they work for many people, I just say even the most common diet advice that almost everyone considers right for everyone may fail spectacularly for someone.

(B Creighton) #8

image
image.png337×566 93.7 KB

I ate a lot of these foods doing keto except the carrots and chickpeas. When I do low carb I do eat some chickpeas, but only if they are organic, as these days many legumes get laced with Roundup about 2 weeks before harvest… a no go for me. I will not eat tofu. I don’t like it, don’t enjoy eating it, and am very dubious of it, as the countries that do eat it have a lot of stomach cancer. I also don’t eat a lot of bell peppers… maybe when eating liver, or Mexican. I believe him to be missing a primary food that I eat every week, and that’s wild salmon. I also eat crab. Instead of chicken breast, I typically eat chichen thighs, which I enjoy more. I actually eat some fiber every day, and agree with him that it is weight loss promoting. Fiber simply will not make you gain weight. I eat a lot of cruciferous vegetables whether doing keto or low carb. I believe the fiber is weight loss promoting because many gut microbes make short chain fatty acids with it which are health promoting. I believe potato chips and french fries do not belong in even the same column as peanuts. I lost 18 pounds simply by stopping eating potato chips. They are disastrous for metabolic health, and are completely something to avoid if you want to lose weight… unless you want to gain weight. When doing low carb, I eat a fair amount(2-3Tblsp) of organic peanuts with no ill effects. When checking down below they seem to suggest egg whites over whole eggs… Nope. I believe you need the yolk for best disgestion of the egg whites. Carrots are too starchy for doing keto, and have too much oxalates for me to eat a lot of. I limit them now. I actually kind of agree with crab and asparagus at the top, and eat those almost every week when doing keto, but just include other meats such as salmon and wild shrimp and grass fed lamb, etc. I also do not eat de-skinned chicken. I want the collagen, and don’t care about the fat when doing keto. What happened to diet doctor I do not know, but yeah, I disagree with several suggestions here from an overall health standpoint.

#9

Because it’s protein/energy ratio is super good I suppose. Yep, if I want to lose fat, focus on egg white may (or may not be) useful. As I get my minimum protein without overeating fat. If I don’t add a lot of fat to my egg white eating, of course so that limits the usefulness but there are some options. I eat the very precious, nutritious, tasty yolks too but in smaller amounts sometimes. And I eat more yolks on fat fast-ish days (it turned out 85% fat works too so a whole egg isn’t a problem if I really want it). It’s so great I can feed my SO extra whites and extra yolks alike. But it’s fine if I eat them all just on different days.

Lean meat is still easier to eat in bigger amounts but sometimes I need a break and I like the extra whites in some dishes. Just like I like extra or only yolks in some others…

Not in small amounts. They are so very flavorful, a little goes a long way! I used it frequently in my soups on vegetarian keto. I had to give up veggie dishes as even my 40g net carbs was too low to have any (I disliked most green leaves) - except my very low-cal, low-carb veggie soups (and some raw vegs and the like. I did eat vegs but just as accent, not as a dish). My soup was mostly water but I always liked thin soups. My SO is the one who uses more vegs than water… :smiley: Carrots were essential to me on my old keto, just like peas. I cooked no soup without them. I gave up potatoes on low-carb already so that was no problem… It’s good I have my meat soups now though. (Mostly) losing interest in vegs were highly useful for me. Carrots, peas and onions still are carby and I didn’t only have a single bowl of soup (I did use lower-carb vegs too, the mentioned were the super flavorful, tiny amount ones, they gave most of the flavor of the liquid)… But I still could eat them and they were very much needed in the past.

(Alec) #10

Totally sold out. God knows who is making the decisions for them right now but they are now nothing more than a standard CICO weight loss “plants are better” standard nutritionist BS website. Utterly worthless and worse, very very misleading and unhealthy in their advice. Their direction has been clear for a while.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

Friends don’t let friends eat tofu! :scream:

#12

I was just reading through that page this morning and they definitely have been captured by the standard nutritional “low-fat” mentality and advice. I mean look at the following quotes:

”Low-fat dairy foods provide more protein per calorie and are less energy dense than full-fat dairy products. So when it comes to maximizing satiety per calorie, low-fat dairy wins”

”For this reason, making low-fat choices works best for most weight loss diets. Just be sure to read labels and avoid low-fat yogurt with added sugar and starch.”

”Unfortunately, most types of cheese don’t provide a lot of satiety per calorie because they have much more fat than protein.”

Uhhh, fat IS satiating…

It’s as if those that have infiltrated them are trying to warp and mold the diet to fit it in with the SAD wisdom that medical institutions and government have been pushing for 60 years. I think they felt if you can’t beat em, join em and then change them from the inside.

(KM) #13

Don’t know if it means anything but the Dr. listed, Bret Scher, hasn’t updated the linked blog or podcasts I found since 2019.

(Alec) #14

Dr Scher left DietDoctor quite a few months ago, I think maybe 12 months ago. He now focuses on mental health benefits of keto/low carb. I remember he said he left because he did not agree with the direction DietDoctor was taking.

#15

Wasn’t Dr Jason Fung affiliated with them at one point too? Or am I misremembering? He no longer is listed there at all so if he was he left too.

(Kirk Wolak) #16

Yeah, it feels like EITHER someone “got to them” or they shifted to serve as a stepping stone. Something closer to what “Doctors” would accept. (You know I cannot recommend your site because it’s so overly focused on removing vegetables… Probably heard 1,000 times by someone who would never recommend anything other than vegan or SAD)…

But I felt they lost the plot, and have not been to the site since.