Why do some long-term ketoers still have excess body fat?

obesity
fat
weightloss
#81

Systemic insulin resistance begins in adipose cells when they become dysfunctional due to reaching the physical limit of expansion. The liver and muscle IR is a downstream effect. It would be an uphill and somewhat pointless battle (I’ve been there) to work on muscle IR without going to the root cause and healing adipose IR. http://breaknutrition.com/episode-5-enlarged-adipocytes-overloaded-lipids-lead-insulin-resistance/

#82

I appreciate that sentiment. I’ve lost and regained weight many times in the past 30 years.

There is a tendency to extrapolate one person’s experience to a whole group, when it may not be the case. For example, one very visible person gaining back some of the weight they lost is not really the same as 13 out of 14 Biggest Losers gaining back most or more than they weight they lost. They also had a corresponding slowing of metabolism. Another underwent weight loss surgery after regaining, then lost weight again.
For those of you who haven’t seen the article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html

(Deb) #83

You want to talk cars?! I AM a mechanic, believe it or not! Lol! I could play with that analogy all day! Good one!

(Adam Kirby) #84

Right, exactly. This is a way of eating my wife and I are going to do probably forever, and if there is some aspect of it that causes regaining of weight in the long term you bet your ass I want to be aware of it. Now I know there are other people who have done the LC as long as Jimmy without regaining weight, so he is a very interesting case.

(Doug) #85

[quote=“carolT, post:81, topic:14709”]
Systemic insulin resistance begins in adipose cells when they become dysfunctional due to reaching the physical limit of expansion. The liver and muscle IR is a downstream effect. It would be an uphill and somewhat pointless battle (I’ve been there) to work on muscle IR without going to the root cause and healing adipose IR.[/quote]

Really good post, Carol. :slight_smile: That makes sense to me, and I’ve never seen it stated like that, especially so concisely. I’ve been interested in health and nutrition for decades (even if I did the worst thing for me as far as eating style), and just have to shake my head at how far most or all of the mainstream writers and researchers were missing the boat, here.

#86

All credit goes to @erdoke on that. I just do the science geek translations. :nerd:

#87

Thanks for the link. You make a great point, I too spent years addressing muscle IR while missing the root cause. Sadly, many of us have it sounds like. What I was trying to illustrate (albeit poorly) was something in addition the just eating keto that could be something easily overlooked. Essentially, the importance of depleting muscle glycogen in addition to depleting the stores in the liver.

@Richard, didn’t I hear you talk about this a few episodes ago? IIRC it was a discussion about exercising while fasting or towards the end of a fast? This is fairly new area of interest for me so I’d love to hear you expand on the subject.

#88

Depleted muscle glycogen acts like a sponge for excess glucose. It will be replenished via GNG while there’s adequate fat available during fasting. It can’t be used for anything besides muscle function after it’s stored away.

Liver glycogen depletion is necessary to initiate ketosis by using up an essential metabolite in the Krebs Cycle. There may be some limited storage after someone has been in ketosis for an extended period without the body accessing it on a daily basis.

(Doug) #89

Yes - things are not necessarily as simple as one might first think, or desire. The puzzle may have several layers.

#90

You might want to look at the FASTER study and it’s conclusions about muscle glycogen and fat utilization.

(Richard Morris) #91

I am working on insulin resistance by making sure that I draw down glycogen stores (in my leg muscles mainly) regularly. This means that after exercising my body slowly refills my glycogen stores using and drawing down insulin to get it into my cells. The theory is that using insulin more will mean lower chronic levels and that lower exposure will reduce insulin resistance in my pancreas.

My fat cells are insulin sensitive. That is what I suspect happens when fat diabetics lose 50-100 lbs and then plateau for years. Their fat cells WERE insulin resistant so they were just releasing energy to be used once they adapted their cells to burning fat. They lose 50-100lbs whoooosh and then they become healthier and less mechanically full and start responding to insulin again - and it’s stall city.

(Cathy) #92

This is the million dollar question - why does keto not produce all the weight loss that seems like it ‘should’? I have been chasing that very question for going on 7 yrs…

My current conclusion is that the body is very good at ‘adjusting’ to eating styles. Eating a certain way for a period of time almost always will work but it seems with in a year or maybe two, it stops. Even for those who have had WLS.

I am a zucker rat … I will die of starvation with excess fat stores. Okay, that is a bit dark but honestly, I am flummoxed.

#93

Thanks @Richard! I guess you piqued my interest with this concept because I’m looking for the next step. Once you are keto for several months/years what are the next steps a person should take to continue improving their health? Fasting is the obvious answer it seems, and I find it fascinating what happens to the body while fasting. When fasting and exercise are combined things get even more interesting. I’m pretty excited to start experimenting in this area.

(Richard Morris) #94

Yeah it’s rather remarkable. I think fasting is something you can do, and is probably healthy for you to do in moderation.

I think once you dial in your glucose, the next phase is to find out what your fasting insulin is, calculate your insulin resistance, bend the needle on that.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #95

Perhaps the “should” is flawed from the outset?

Perhaps looking at someone’s body as a snapshot in time doesn’t provide the full story?

Perhaps weight gained over a period of years cannot easily be shed in months?

Perhaps metabolic damage incurred over a period of years cannot easily be healed in weeks, or months (or possibly ever, for some)?

I’m going to have to agree with those who’ve suggested that we focus on our own keto journey [edited to be clear I’m not referring to anyone specific, but all of us collectively]. I don’t think it’s useful to wonder about why others (whatever their prominence may be in the keto world) haven’t lost as much weight as you (or someone else) thinks they “should”.

For me personally, would I love to shed a few more pounds? Sure. At the same time, I am still more than 50 lbs lighter than at my peak, and I know that a good deal more of my current weight is muscle. I eat keto and lift weights because I want to be healthy and I want to be strong. I don’t have any illusions of being model-fit, nor do I see that as a healthy goal (for me…others have to choose their goals). Focusing on my goals allows me to try different strategies and see what works best for me.

Until or unless one of those others decides to publicly discuss their own n=1 experience, and wants to share what did or didn’t present challenges to them, I don’t see much reason to speculate on why they don’t fit my image of what “keto weight loss success” should look like.

BTW, not calling you out specifically, Cathy. Just my observations on the thread overall, in response to your specific question.

(Ernest) #96

Let’s not expect a few years on keto to reverse decades of damage, overnight.
We are here now so it’s a start. We are on the right path but expectations need to be checked.

(Cathy) #97

I believe ‘metabolic damage’ is the key but what to do is the question. Or, is there anything that can be done? Personally, I have had the opportunity to dive deep into the science and that has confirmed my commitment to keto. And here I stay ~ weight loss being a secondary issue now.

I still feel like I can’t be a good keto advocate because of my lingering excess weight and that is unfortunate in some ways.

(Cathrine Helle) #98

I think this is key. Having been low carb for seven years and periodically keto, my experience is that the body is extremely adaptable. Turning an obese body lean is a very complicated task, and on top of that we’re all different. Personally I no longer think that I can fall in to any kind of pattern of eating during weight loss, and still think it applies for maintenance. Even though this is a bit discouraging, it doesn’t mean it’s not doable - and I think we have to let go of the notion that once we’ve settled in to something comfortable, this will continue to work for us endlessly.

(Wenchie) #99

I would like to add something to how this discussion went as if made me feel a bit uncomfortable to read some of it (maybe this will upset people- its not my intention! I would rather raise a point for understanding eachother better)

I personally think the reason why we compare ourselves to others is that we have, some of us our whole life, been told to be like others, to fit in, to take slim people as an example and to become like them. So we do compare! And we get insecure and I do think many people just want to see hope that things will be ok if they follow the rules.

I bloody well know that we all should be full of selfworth and none of us should give a f… what orhers think and how others do it. But lets be real! After decades of bullying and being told to f… better ourselves because the way we are is wrong- now we are supposed to stand there all secure and with a straight backbone?

I agree that its not ok to discuss a special persons weight publicly. If that would be me I would be devestated.

But I also think that all of the routined ketonians, who learned over the years to be content and secure in what they are doing would help us newbies a lot by appriciating that we still have a lot of work to do. Not just by loosing weight but also by loosing guilt and scars from a life full of being told me are not ok and need to do what orhers do.

Please give us that room and please understand that we might simply compare to find our place in this.

N=1 and KCKO is all totally right and good but its a process to get there and some people simply need to learn this by time- not by force. Btw that also goes for dealing with “annoying” impatient newbies who want soooo much in the firt weeks. I have been there, still am (a lot because of me being surrounded by people who want to see me fail for them to be right) and You guys were too.

Please lets help eachother and let this be an open place even for questions that for you guys seem so out of place. We think about these things and I love that it can be discussed, because only that gives people like me the chance to get to the point were I truly take in n=1 and things will be good as long as you KCKO

(Michelle) #100

Very interesting thread for sure!! FWIW, I switched to Keto in January for the health benefits and disease prevention from this WOE. I expected a slight drop in weight since I was basically cutting out a macronutrient.

Initially, I did drop some weight, but gained it back and more. I’m now 4 lbs up, stuck here for 2 months. My clothes are getting tight again.

Soooo… to me, Keto is not a weight loss tool. It’s still great, and I have no intention to ever go back to carbs and sugar. But, if I want to shed this gain, I have to figure things out.

And, just to add, I’m not metabolically deranged, nor diabetic, nor have any poor health markers.