Why do some long-term ketoers still have excess body fat?

obesity
fat
weightloss
(Tom Seest) #41

This is of of the reasons you have a beautiful mind…

#42

On a side note, you can get the error codes for most modern cars (post 1995 I believe?) by using an OBD II scanner (sometimes called a CAN tool). They can be picked up at most auto stores and there’s a million of them on amazon.

Mechanics will sometimes need to use ones that cost thousands to get all the possible information from every possible car, but the rest of us will usually do well enough with a $30-$60 one (maybe less now). It’s actually just generally a good idea to have one around and they have more uses than just looking at active error codes (some anyway).

#43

Does this look simple to you? Because if it does, perhaps you can explain it to the rest of us.

http://biochemical-pathways.com/#/map/1

#44

I believe the point was not so much to worry about the particular high profile people, so much as the question whether we are all correct about the ketogenic diet being so useful and doing everything it is claimed to do.

This is an important question. Around here we say “show me the science”, meaning largely “show me the evidence”. That science is usually related to research on some set of subjects that show some kind of trend. There are outliers in most experiments though, which is important to keep in mind. In any case, any individual person can be seen as another point of evidence, or testimony, to how well the diet works. Outside of a controlled environment, their importance diminishes, and N=1 is far less important for general knowledge than N=10,000, but the 1 still can still raise questions about anything treated as an absolute if the absolute seems to not apply to the 1.

In other words, if we think 'All who eat a ketogenic diet long term will end up with a body fat % below 20" (for whatever reason someone might think that specifically), and we find even 1 person eating a ketogenic diet long term for whom their body fat % did not go or stay below 20, that calls into question (actually, it refutes) the prior notion.
If the particular person is prominent, it just means more people see that evidence, but often people associate “prominent figure in (subject)” with someone “doing (thing of subject) right”, thus giving them extra confidence that their example really is refuting the claim.

There are several problems in the above, of course, but that’s why the concern is there. The actually is about their own keto journey. They are scared that, “if it doesn’t work for that person, the claim that lead me to do this in the first place may be a lie” and thus wonder if they should themselves stop doing it.

(Nick) #45

I bent over backwards to phrase my question in a nonjudgmental way, but given your uncharitable reaction it seems I’ve failed. I suppose you don’t know me at all, so you have no reason to think positively about my intentions in starting this thread, but I’m disappointed you haven’t given me the benefit of doubt.

I thought there was some fruitful discussion, which is exactly what I was hoping for, but it’s also true that people have been openly discussing Jimmy’s weight, which is unpleasant and uncalled for. For what it’s worth, he wasn’t the person who’d originally prompted my question. However, I was aware that he’s been criticised along the lines of this thread in the past, so in hindsight I could have predicted the thread would degrade in this manner.

Let me see if I can rephrase the question more constructively: my understanding of keto suggests anybody following the diet will, in the long term, arrive at a body composition of relatively low fat. Why doesn’t this always happen?

(Tom Seest) #46

Yes. I know I can buy apps to access the codes. I just wonder why they don’t display the codes. It would be more useful.

#47

So, back to the original question then ^^. I’m not sure where you got this understanding because I’ve never made that assumption myself.
And I’ll assume that you’re talking about that in the context of men, not women. That would be at the low end for a female BF%.

#48

All one can ever do is speculate about other people’s reasons for losing or gaining weight. I just don’t see the point of it. Now if you are talking about yourself, that is fine. You can discuss with authority what is going on with you. If you are having problems you can lay out everything you are doing, not doing and ask for opinions as to how to get where you want to be. I am not prepared to comment on Jimmy or any other overweight keto celebrity because I do not know what is going on with them and I get sick of people who do. Uncharitable? Maybe. Bothered? Nope.

(Ernest) #49

Here’s the thing folks, it all comes down to choices. Nobody lectured me on keto. I researched on my own and went for it cold turkey. 18 months in, I’m not going back. I don’t even know how much I’ve lost, never cared about the scale numbers. What I do know for a fact is I feel great without feeling deprived.
Can’t waste time and energy on what society thinks.
AND, I do not preach about my lifestyle. Even when I’m asked, I say “go and research on your own”.
My health is in my own hands.

Pass me some leaf lard please.

(Nick) #50

Yes, I was thinking of men. Sub-20% would indeed be quite low for women.

I suppose my assumption is based on the idea that a low-carb, high-fat, ketogenic diet mimics our ancestral diet, especially when combined with intermittent fasting, and I believe our hunter-gatherer ancestors were all quite lean and muscular, at least in summer.

#51

Ah, I see. In a paleo context you are starting with a healthy young human, without generations of family metabolic disease handed down and multiplied. While you can reverse some of the effects of diabetes, etc. with ketosis, it will never (unlikely, anyway) be the same as a naturally insulin sensitive person who has been eating low carb and fasting during their lives.

#52

I have been reminded that I too once questioned “results” back in my early and uninformed days. I seem to remember I read an article that sounded very plausible. I was enlightened and berated and will always regret asking the question even though it was curiosity and a desire to make sense of something that did not make sense to me. My focus was different - more on blood test results than weight. However, I should have been more understanding when it came to your post. Trust me, you will likely regret this post in months to come as I did with mine. I take back my judgement of you and your comment and change it to benefit of the doubt as you asked for. I guess we only get the answers to these things by asking. It’s just not that important. Do you value the information someone is giving or not? Judge them on that rather than their appearance and give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to weight loss.

(Adam Kirby) #53

Bingo. There is probably permanent damage done while eating a SAD in one’s formative years, that can never be fixed.

#54

Not just in formative years, but in the womb and in your parents’ wombs. We have been eating poorly for many generations at this point.

(Adam Kirby) #55

Agreed!

(Crow T. Robot) #56

Coincidentally, I was just catching up on some podcasts, one of which was Keto Talk Ep.69. The question came up: how much if at all do calories matter on keto. Dr. Nally’s answer was essentially, yes, they matter, but to what extent is still something of a mystery and individual thing. We don’t burn calories in the same way a bomb calorimeter does, so those numbers are a rough guide at best. There are people who lose weight counting calories on keto and those who lose weight eating to satiety. In a sense, they are both doing the same thing in different ways. By counting macros, you are going by a number, which isn’t necessary if your hormone signaling is working and you listen to it. Either way, you are being told when and how much to eat.

My only addition to that is that we can be tempted to restrict too much and therefore limit the repair work that our body needs to do to balance our hormones, especially if we restrict saturated fat, which is crucial in the synthesis of hormones. I suspect this might be the reason for some struggling eating low-cal keto. Some might need to consciously overeat and not pay attention to calories, temporary weight gain be damned, in order to lose weight on the other side. Evidently, some who eat ZC gain weight in the first few weeks before losing.

(Nick) #57

Thank you, Daisy, for your gracious response. I suspect I’ll find you’re right and that I will look back and regret this post before long. I hope I’ll be able to contribute positively here in the future so that there is no doubt about my intentions. Cheers.

(Nick) #58

Thanks, your responses were enlightening. It hadn’t really occurred to me that we can do enough damage such that it’s not reversible in one’s lifetime.

#59

I expect you will be berating someone for doing the same thing before long :wink:

#60

Just for one Science example: