Why are longer fasts more efficacious than daily IF?

(Kelli Perkins) #21

I can speak to eating one meal a day without keto for a year. We have done 23:1 without reducing carbs during our one meal, and we lost over 140 lbs. However, our blood sugar is still too high and husband’s blood pressure was still too high. We’ve been doing extended fasts if 2-5 days since the beginning of the year and keto for only a couple of weeks. Our blood sugar is really responding and husband’s blood sugar is under normal so he’s gone off his bp meds. Sorry this doesn’t answer omad keto, but omad non keto did not give us the health benefits we needed!

(Erin Macfarland ) #22

How does exercise while fasting accelerate its benefits?

(Todd Allen) #23

I’ve come to see fasting as one of many stresses that stimulate beneficial adaptive responses that we need for robust health. Other such stresses are activity/exercise, thermal stress both hot and cold, sunlight and exposure to germs. This isn’t meant to be an exhaustive list just things that come to mind. Each has short term negative consequences and if the dose is excessive can produce acute damage and/or death. Excessive chronic dosing at levels exceeding our ability to respond positively can produce increasingly severe long term damage. Through much of our evolutionary history these stresses weren’t optional they were inescapable parts of life and we did our best to avoid killing doses of them. But we have been so successful at this that many often get too little exposure to these stresses and our bodies don’t squander energy to maintain unneeded strengths and resiliencies. So many of us can benefit by intentionally inducing these stresses, especially if we take care to target appropriate dosing. And that dosing depends on our health/fitness, quantity/quality of nutrition and sleep, and the amount of other chronic stresses we are subjected too such as mental/psychological stress, exposures to toxins such as chemicals, radiation, etc. And the accumulated damages of aging also slowly rob us of our tolerance for stresses through weakening responses for repair and growth and we need to compensate with growing wisdom to find the right balance.

A more controversial possibility I’ve contemplated is perhaps carbohydrates might also be thought of as a stress capable of generating positive adaptation - at the appropriate dose, one which generally declines with age, and one that most of us, with encouragement by institutional authorities, have been chronically overdosing on.

Anyway, back to fasting and the original question, I think for each of us there is an optimal mix of each stress depending on our current condition and goals. For exercise you need some walking, some sprinting and some heavy lifting, each affects us in differing ways and a mix is best though some might do better with more or less of each. Likewise IF and EF surely produce different responses and the amount of each that is ideal for us is going to vary. The best we can do is experiment with each and try to find our own balance.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #24

Congrats on the weight loss. Keto does have benefits other diets don’t have. I started my journey to keto/lchf with the Zone a 40c/30p/30f WOE. Never got to my desired weight, always regained if I strayed at all. IF and EX fasting and ketosis have done the trick for me.

All the best in your Quest for Health.

(Rob) #25

Fascinating theory. I tend to agree but as you say, it is somewhat moot in today’s society where everyone is overdosed from an early age. I wonder what the implications of this might be?

(Mark Rhodes) #26

I am of the belief that as culture became more agrarian our responses to the binary system started to evolve towards a more uniform binary fuel system, that is evolving towards running on glucose more efficiently. I too think that had we not ramped up the production to outpace adaptive responses we would be on our way. However, we are not. I am also convinced that there could be beneficial aspects to eating carbohydrates seasonally, if only to use the glucose machinery. Some fruits in the summer, more garden yields in September. Some winter squash and root vegetables come November.

Once I get to a as yet undefined “healthy place” I will experiment with this. The reason again is optimal health and not desire to eat these foods. Keto gives me such satisfaction that I am rarely tempted.

(Jennifer ) #27

This was a great little nugget. I agree with you on so many levels.

Our gastro-intestinal system certainly didn’t evolve to experience 3 meals a day. Frankly, that’s a VERY recent phenomenon in human history. It makes you wonder how much it affects.

If autpphagy does what we think it does, and we’ve effectively eliminated it from our existence as of 100-150 years ago…the implications are really interesting. Assuming we’re correct about autophagy, we’ve been keeping our bodies from taking the recycling out for quite some time. I would imagine that could create quite an interesting domino effect.

(Jennifer ) #28

Agreed with this. We didn’t evolve to have access to fruits all year long. But when it’s hot as all heck - I can see the evolutionary benefit of a shot of sugar to get you through the day.

(Bonnie Low) #29

I have a question about the statement ‘I don’t think that intermittent EF (ie 3-4 days every month) is very effective for weight loss because most of it likely to be water that is regained. While weight loss associated with an IF WOE is likely to be fat loss.’

According to a podcast I just listened to with Dr.Fung, he says you can burn about 1/2 lb of body fat per day while doing EF. Yes, you’re going to lose water in the first day or so, just like you do any time you IF, but it sounds like EF for any period will result in fat loss so long as you don’t go back to poor eating habits afterwards. Wouldn’t that be so? Why would we assume that all that has been lost was water on EF? Maybe I’m misinterpreting it.

(Bonnie Low) #30

Where does one go to get a DEXA scan?

#31

In the lastest Obesity Code podcast, Megan Ramos talks about why fasting is effective for weight loss. Elevated levels of insulin cause weight gain, and prolonged periods of low insulin levels promote lipolysis. She says that is why fasting frequently is effective, when occasional fasting may not be.

I think you may have misunderstood my earlier post. While a 3-4 day fast is beneficial on many fronts, I don’t think it would result in significant weight loss for most folks, once eating resumed. A portion may be fat loss, which could be permanent, but a significant amount is water loss.

I can easily gain or lose 2-3 lbs in a single day. Over the course of weeks, my fat mass is gradually decreasing and my muscle mass is gradually increasing, but on a daily basis, the scale mostly reflects a change in my body’s hydration. Ultimately, what matters is how your body works (n=1). Try, measure, tweak, repeat. If you can achieve the results you want by fasting for 3 or 4 days a month, congratulations on finding what works for you.

#32

Google “DEXA scan in {your city}”.

(Mark Rhodes) #33

Also if you can convince your Dr. to get a bone density scan it is the same machine. FInd out first if your healthcare provider also provides body fat analysis.

(Bonnie Low) #34

Thanks! Awesome advice!

(Bonnie Low) #35

It seems most people lose the water weight in the first day, maybe two, of an extended fast. Wouldn’t they then switch to true fat loss? For example, I do a few 3-4 day extended fasts each month. I’m sure the results the first day or two are mostly water loss, but Dr. Fung says a person on average can lose .5 lb fat per day on an extended fast. So I would think after the initial water loss, you’re in fat burning mode, particularly if you are already on a strict Keto WOE before starting the fast (which I am and have been for over a year now.) I’m just trying to figure out where the water loss stops and the fat loss begins. And when you break your fast, the initial weight gain is definitely going to be water, but I would also think that if you maintain a strict keto WOE, you will not be putting fat back ON once you’ve broken the fast. I’m just trying to figure out if that’s true or not. It seems logical and, of course, I realize everyone is different.

(Dan Dan) #36

Both drink and food have weight :open_mouth:

Many mistake the temporary weight gain of their meals to actual weight gain :thinking:

(Bonnie Low) #37

You’re right - water and food weight. So I’m just trying to get down to the answer about re-gaining the fat you lost. What are your thoughts on that?

(Doug) #38

Bonnie, that sounds exactly right to me. Not eating many carbohydrates means less water loss when fasting - don’t have so much internal water bound up to carb molecules, but we still retain less fluid when fasting. Here I think it’s mainly a matter of electrolytes - mostly just how much salt are we taking in? I often don’t feel the need for salt and considerable water weight loss happens when fasting.

I think Dr. Fung’s 1/2 lb. per day fasting fat loss figure is a good one. More obese people with hundreds of pounds of fat to lose - maybe they go higher. I would think that we would not put fat back on after a fast, unless we really eat a lot. Yet I know from hearing different peoples’ tales that it can happen.

(Bonnie Low) #39

Thanks! It’s good to hear other’s thoughts on this!

(Jennifer ) #40

I fail to understand how going from eating 7 days worth of calories a week to 3-5 days worth of calories per week WOULDN’T result in some form of fat loss. Especially since during fasting, the theory is your metabolism isn’t slowing down like it would if calorie restricted to the same total weekly amount. Your body has no choice but to drawn down on your stored fat when you’re not eating. Yes you can get something from your glycogen stores…but you’d run yourself into the ground pretty quickly if you body didn’t start using your stored fat.

Then again, I’m not Dr. Fung, I’m just repeating what I think I’ve read. :woman_shrugging: