Why am I Hungrier When I Eat Than When I Fast?

#1

This is sort of a vent or rhetorical question, I am quite familiar with insulin as a trigger and its movement causing hunger due to its rise and then drop even on a low carb diet and most likely I am either not having enough fat or eating too many carbs or both. Still it is frustrating. I have read Fung extensively and I know he had patients fast because that is easier than eating well! to paraphrase.

I generally have coffee with half and half or cream around 12 or 1 and while I think what I could eat, I mostly cannot be bothered. I am not triggered to eat. I think about making eggs but usually cannot be bothered. I work asynchronously so I am not usually busier during the day than at night. I am never hungry when I wake up even after fasting for over 30 hours. I am usually hungry for dinner around 8 (do not go to bed before 12 or 1) and after dinner I start snacking. If I am fasting I eat nothing except 2 cups of coffee with cream midday and I am usually fine. If I eat a meal or not during the day nothing much changes, I am still triggered to snack at night. It does not matter what I eat for dinner, it could be eggs in butter sauce, I will still be triggered to eat snacks

This makes no sense and it is frustrating. I am fully keto adapted and have been for years. In the past I have fasted for days and have had no trouble not snacking. BTW if I eliminate the keto snacks that I have then it gets worse and I start eating small amounts of regular snacks (have a large family and while they eat mostly ā€œconventionally healthyā€ I need to keep sugar and bread in the house for them) and pretty soon I am having regular pizza!

(Joey) #2

@Saphire Not sure I fully follow ā€¦ are you essentially saying that when you refrain from eating, not eating gets easier?

If so, it sounds like a classic example of carbs (unlike protein and even fat, if fat-adapted) making you hungry sooner than later. I appreciate you say you donā€™t eat carbs ā€¦ but cheese and nuts have more carbs than some folks appreciate - and both are especially hard to portion control.

Also, if you ā€œstart eating small amounts of regular snacksā€¦ā€ sounds like youā€™re continuing to introduce some amount of refined carbs into the mix. If so, I strongly suspect thatā€™s whatā€™s messing up your hunger management issues.

#3

Yes, exactly! I made some clarifications. If I have cheese or nuts during the day I am not triggered at all. It is if I eat anything at night, it could be eggs with butter sauce or fried in coconut oil and some avocado or a fried steak. It does not matter what it is, the minute I eat at night, which is the only time I am hungry anyway and the only time my family and I can sit together to eat that I get triggered

(Robin) #4

A lot of folks, including myself have to deal with our late night urges. Especially if we were snackers before.

(Joey) #5

Thanks for clarifying. Okay then, clearly you must ask your family to move out. [joke]

But seriously, as you know, thereā€™s a universal emotional association between our loved ones and our food. We make food a central part of our celebrating, bonding, and sharing connection with our family and friends. Every culture does it and the impulse is entirely healthyā€¦ i.e., sharing sustenance.

The best you can do is to recognize it, engage your family in your struggle, and continue to keep keto-friendly snacks on hand so you can stick to these.

Of course, another alternative: rather than disrupt your entire family, is that you can move out?

[Still joking.]

#6

I mentioned my family to short circuit the obvious suggestion that I stop eating earlier in the day to see if that helps (I cannot do it! I have tried and it really does eliminate what little social and family life I have now. Also during the summer starting in June, I am out of the house until about 7 every day and do not have ready access to keto food)

While there is stress eating and I have done it, I really have never subscribed to emotions as playing a major role in the average personā€™s eating (not talking about someone who was abused in some way, I mean the typical life). Stress eating is generally temporary, sure an average person may go for ice cream after a stressor but they can usually maintain homeostasis

I have a friend who when I met her 22 years ago blamed her weight (BMI in the upper 30s) on her mother depriving her of snacks and triggering her. She has a perfectly normal life, married, children, nice job she enjoys, and loves her mother and father and happily spends time with them even now. This was one of our first conversations and I disagreed with her saying that most weight gain is genetic and hormonal. My new friend thought to herself as she told me later ā€œshe is very nice but does not know what she is talking about!ā€ Fast forward to 2018 and my friend went on intermittent fasting (without keto) 8 hours and has lost over 100 lbs and is keeping it off! Nothing has changed for her emotionally. I am actually jealous because while she tries never to overeat, she does have cake at parties and considers a hamburger on a bun or a sandwich a perfectly acceptable lunch (which for her is actually breakfast). I cannot eat that way, it will trigger me.

The other reason I believe weight for most people is hormonal or biological in some way is during most of my pregnancies I lost my appetite. This is not to say I did not eat, I was very happy to eat at mealtimes but normally preKeto, if I am someplace with good desserts, after the meal all I am thinking about is when is it polite to get up and get another piece of cake or cookie. I found during my pregnancies not only did I not do that, I would forget to get up and get the first cookie. During my last pregnancy, now many years ago, I had a new colleague who midway through finally said to me that she could not understand why I was heavy (she was polite) when she barely saw me eat anything (we ate lunch and dinner together often). I explained that it was the pregnancy. I had another colleague at a prior job who was the opposite. She was about 110 lbs before pregnancy and would gain something like 50 lbs with each child. She said it was the only time in her life that was truly hungry and could not stop eating. She said her appetite literally went away in the delivery room! By the time she came back to work she was back down to her normal weight

#7

OK I think I got the gist of your postā€¦correct me if wrong on what you are asking :slight_smile:

your body is starving. when it gets some food it wants more. it is asking point blank the food intake is not enough to satisfy your nutritional needs it requires. It asks for moreā€¦you do fine while ā€˜fastingā€™ or not eating long times cause your mindset is I canā€™t be bothered. But you do ok on your fasting times cause you are also mentally there for some fasting time and get thru that okā€¦but when you eat again, your body is triggered in WOW I love this food for fuel, but I need more. So you get hungry more point blank when it feed it some food but not enough.

Then the night is over, you ate and snacked thru still hungry for nutrition and then in the morning you gain back your body control and you repeat this pattern again probably.

sounds to me ya need to be bothered to eat something :slight_smile: If you do that, then a good chance all that snacking will be history cause your body has the fuel it requires in your day to not ask for more food.

Now, is that kinda what you are dealing with on how your eating patterns are going?

(Joey) #8

Practicing without a license, but here I goā€¦ I think youā€™ve got things 100% backwards.

@Saphire has clarified that thereā€™s no hunger during the day (when thereā€™s been no eating) ā€¦ the hunger arises when eating while hanging out with family. Urge to snack together all night long.

Sounds like the family association is more likely the causation culprit. :thinking:

#9

I appreciate the comments but I am not starving. I have a BMI in the 30s. One of the principles of Keto is that your body will use fat as food, either the fat that you eat or the fat that you store and is released when insulin is low (such as when you have not eaten). Also, several times a week I do eat lunch, just not every day and it is mostly dictated by circumstance rather than hunger. Today I had some leftover raw chicken I had to cook for lunch. Last week I had a lunch meeting midweek. Same thing whether I have lunch or not. The trigger is dinner.

You are correct in the first part, but the family really does not hang much eating after dinner, I am not triggered by their eating. Kids have homework and lessons at night or simply hiding in their rooms facetiming their friends! I am usually catching up on TV or doing my asynchronous work. Sure at a party I might be triggered by other people but not so much in my own house. The kids are around a lot, was kidding about the hiding but they are really not big snackers, when we all hang out we are not usually doing it to eat. I am not big on serving dessert although there is usually ice cream available if anyone wants it (not me of course). Even if they have some, it is one bowl and they are done. For me cake and donuts are bigger triggers and I rarely buy them

(Joey) #10

Okay thenā€¦ Iā€™m officially stumped! Since youā€™re generally making healthy food choices for yourself, Iā€™d suggest you simply eat to satiety whenever you want, let your body be your guide, and refrain from second guessing why this is the way your daily rhythm works for the time being.

As we figure things out, things typically change. :vulcan_salute:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

While this is true, the body tends to hang on to its fat store and cut the metabolic rate, when we signal there is a famine going on by not eating enough food.

And donā€™t forget Dr. Fungā€™s advice: ā€œWhen you fast, fast. When you eat, feast!ā€

#12

LOL I still think I made a valid point backed by what PaulL just said in his post :slight_smile:

oh I should not have typed ā€˜starvingā€™, I should have typed under nourished to its potential. I think that is a better thought of what I am trying to say, your body is ASKING for nutrients and wants them, therefore you need to feed itā€¦but I should not say starving, that was not my direction in thought :slight_smile: sorry on that.

also remember there is that thing called nasty habit. I was a night time eater. In fact I did the bulk of my damage to myself with starting to eat in the eveninng after dinner. I ate straight up to bed for sure. I tend to not be a ā€˜day eaterā€™ in my entire life, and night triggered alot of my eating and this could be a habit and I have to say, this habit is a monster to break, it was for me.

only way I broke it. I ate very very well til fullness point blank. til I could not put another morsel of meat in my tummy.

So it could be true nutritional hunger from your body when you do feed it plus add on that ā€˜you are a night time eaterā€™ habit like I was??

SomeGuy, Paul and me got ya all wrapped up into a kind of fixā€¦follow the body, be sure to eat very well and nourish your body and fast when you fast, and feast when you feast :sunny: You may have a combo of issues happening that are setting you up into an issue for yourself in some way. I think trial and error on your eating pattern should truly settle this for ya in some way as you work on it. wishing you the best.

(Bob M) #13

I am 100% with you. Many times, I can be not hungry AT ALL, but Iā€™ll sit down with my family for dinnerā€¦and not only eat a normal meal, but generally will have to have something like yogurt and coconut afterwards. Eating makes me hungry.

Iā€™ll even start taking a small portion, because Iā€™m not hungry. Then, Iā€™ll take more and more, until Iā€™ve eaten a normal meal, while starting from near zero hunger.

Like you, we have kids who are doing dance, etc., and we have to eat late. We eat at least 7pm+ on four nights a week. The only respite is Friday. They go on to doing something, but my hunger has been triggered

For me, eating itself is a trigger causing me to eat more.

Iā€™m looking forward to summer, when Iā€™m going to try to move that dinner back if I can. No idea whether this will help, but weā€™ll see.

Which is why I like to build in one day (36 hours) of complete fasting per week. And my daughterā€™s dance schedule works well here, as I can come home, take her to dance at 7pm, stay out at the library or go grocery shopping, pick her back up a 8:15-8:30pm, then go home, and I have basically no time before I can be in bed. Unfortunately, Iā€™ve started training for a 5k and jogging 3 days a week. Adding that to two days a week of body weight training, and Iā€™m too hungry lately to fast for an extended period. I can barely make it to 10am when I eat my first meal.

#14

Thatā€™s what I call ā€˜Mondayā€™.:wink:

#15

Sounds like a plan. I try to fast for 36 hours at a time as well. Now that Covid is no longer as large a factor in my area I may consider going back to longer fasts. I did not over the last couple of years because even pre2020, when I fasted I sometimes got weird things around day 3, colds, bacterial infections that required antibiotics, Gout like symptoms (I am not otherwise prone to gout as far as I know), various aches and pains that I did not have the week before. Often these things would take a week or more to resolve or I would have to take various medications or supplements. For awhile I was getting a cold a month in 2017 but they were minor. Then I started taking Liposomal Vitamin C and I stopped fasts longer than 2 days (not on purpose, just could not manage it) and then I did not get sick for over a year.

Interesting that you get hungry at 10. When I fast I am starving around dinner time but then it goes away after an hour (I will sometimes have a nut or two). Then the next morning I am not hungry again which is how I ended up with longer fasts in the first place. Now if I am really hungry around dinner time I will give it up and just eat a meal and do a fast on another day. Usually the fasts happen when I am too busy to eat and I realize it is 9PM and why bother now

(Bob M) #16

Thatā€™s why I try to fast on the days I can take and pick up my daughter from dance. I stay at work as long as possible, drive home, pick her up, take her to dance, stay out, pick her up, come home, itā€™s 8:30pm or later. Not much time until sleep. And I donā€™t have anyone asking why Iā€™m not eating at dinner.