Where I Part Ways with the Popular Keto Movement | Mark's Daily Apple

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#28

As a fat anorexic, its a big deal for me, and I’m glad. It means I won’t do it tomorrow, even though I’m feeling bad about it right now.

#29

How do you even manage less than that? I was trying to do a fat fast today (failed miserably) and ate nothing but zuccini, macadamia nuts, cream, cheese and avocado and still had way more than that in carbs

Is that net or total?

(Ken) #30

The concept of a “Fat Fast” was developed many years ago and was intended mainly for the obese. What it does is begin the process of reduction of lipogenic resistance states. It also provides a very strong leptin response, which is important to the obese, as their leptin response is essentially disabled (due to leptin resistance) when following a Carb based nutritional pattern.

The debate is if it is really necessary, when compared to the 60/35/5% lipolytic macro. Since protein is essential, and is only available as an energy source when used as a substrate for gluconeogenesis, protein defficiencies are very possible, as the body may default to burning muscle when dietary protein intake drops too low. Protein is best left to it’s main function, cellular repair, replacement, and growth, rather than as an energy source. That’s why it’s important to hit the proper 60/35% macro. Overeating protein can also easily stall fat loss, not only due to it’s use as an energy source, but also because insufficient fat intake can lessen the leptin response. Not enough leptin to flux through the Hexsosamine Biosynthetic Pathway, which provides the satiety response…

#31

That piece was a little above my head, I’m not a science geek. I’m most interested in how the science is applied. Seems like the gist of it is if your body is in ketosis, most of your cells are using fat rather than glucose. And that’s good for us for a host of reasons.

#32

I agree with he says but what he says is something for most of us to aspire to. For someone who is a physical specimen who wants to tinker with their macros to have different fuel sources for different needs, what he says is true. But for a lot of people who are trying to tap into old, stubborn fat stores we have more urgent priorities than having a little glucose on board for an Ironman competition. I like Mark and most of what he says but he’s in the same boat as a lot of health experts, they emphasize “optimal” without addressing what might need to be different leading up to optimal.

(Doug) #33

I just have not seen the “lots of people,” Adam. :slightly_smiling_face: Totally agree with you that agonizing over the numbers will usually be pointless/silly/worthless. My impression, however, is that more people like the data and enjoy collecting and tracking it, than get all stressed-out over it.

#34

Total, and today I managed 5g

#35

I like to keep a track so I can check back on progress etc I have food charts from day 1

#36

Can you post a typical day? What do you use to track

#37

I write down everything I eat on charts printed out and stuck to the fridge door. I use the food labels for the macros.

Today I ate

2 fried eggs with 3 slices of bacon.
1/2 large chicken breast with broccoli and coffee with HWC

2 meals suits me because I don’t get hungry until lunchtime, and then I cook dinner when hubby gets home from work, so last meal is about 5 to 6pm

#38

Thank you.

I think Cronometer reads high (which makes me feel better). I put what you ate through it (of course guessing on amounts) and it said 10.3 total carbs and 5 net carbs and 471 calories total.

I think I may need to retrain my appetite a little. I have been trying a fast fat and have been hungry all day and keep craving protein

#39

@Saphire , the few times that I’ve done a fat fast it’s been by accident (basically fatty coffee then fasting for the rest of the day) so I speak from a place of minimal experience on this, but I’ve seen folks say that they’re much hungrier eating something than just water fasting (i.e. that fat fasting is harder than just plain fasting). I wonder if chewing and eating set up an expectation for our bodies that more food/some protein is on its way?

(Ken) #40

Geez guys, what kind of caloric deficits are you running? Fat loss is a fairly slow process, in order for it to be healthy as hormonal secretion patterns adjust. A 500 calorie per day deficit results in a one pound per week fat loss, a very reasonable amount. A 1000 calorie per day deficit results in two pounds, but that is fairly drastic and can potentially put you into a metabolic slowdown, actually slowing fat loss. Periodic fasting works, especially to jump start things, but if it becomes chronic you will have all sorts of orexigenic hormone (starved state) secretion effects which will sabotage both your health as well as your fat loss. Cutting down to one meal a day can be effective if it contains enough calories, especially if it prolongs a ghrelin secretion, (hunger, felt in the stomach) but if you drastically restrict calories it will slow things down as far as fat loss, and can potentially cause you to start burning your own muscle. Observed weight loss in this case may actually be your own muscle mass.

#41

I completely know what you mean.

I am usually an all or nothing person. I have done a number of 5 day fasts but I am simply not in the mood right now. Yet I need to do something as I had a weight gain over last two weeks and it is right at the 6 month keto point so it makes me nervous plus I have two big weekends coming up where I will be eating out for every meal.

I did one fat fast over the summer and loved it. It was much easier than an extended fast and I lost the same amount of weight. I found having a small amount of cheese or nuts for lunch and dinner very satisfying. This time not so much. I did not really feel like I was fasting which is one reason I did not do it again until now, it did not feel restrictive enough. At that point I had been fasting a lot more so compared to eating nothing, eating something was great

(Ken) #42

Well,

Six months of Keto with both regular and fat fasts thrown in? Now, your weight loss has stalled? Sounds potentially like a metabolic slowdown to me. Perhaps an answer would be to track both activity and calories, keeping the 60/35/5% macro during the week with a 500 calorie per day deficit. On the weekends I’d flip your macros and go for full glycogen recompensation, including at least a 1000 calorie excess. There’s absolutely no chance of your body actually becoming lipogenic over so short a time, but you will gain weight due to glycogen. It usually works, (almost always) and provides a nice break. Trust me, I’ve been there.

Remember, these are adaptive processes, and Man’s survival has been due to very flexible nutritional biochemistry, as well as the ability to conserve body fat.

You won’t know you’re eating enough carbs for recompensation until you get really, really thirsty. It’s because three molecules (as I remember without looking it up) of water are needed to be pulled from your digestive system in order to create one molecule of glycogen.

#43

Thanks for the response @240lbfatloss although I am not sure I fully understand. In lay terms you are saying I should do strict keto during the week but eat 500 calories less than my presumptive calorie requirements?

Then on the weekends eat 1000 calories more each day than I require and have 60% of those come from carbs? Would my weight fluctuate a lot? Also, these next two months I have a lot of events where I will be wearing tight fitting formal clothing, I cannot go up and down and would love to look the best I possibly can, especially for an event in December, suggestions with that as a priority?

Couple of thoughts and concerns:

I am not one to keep very good track not because I do not want to but because then I become obsessed and my personal philosophy of eating is it should be natural and not forced so that I can maintain it, this is why Weight Watchers when I tried it 20 years ago was an epic no.
I spent all day obsessing about what I could eat. My bests days are when I am busy and remember to grab something at home and then run out again.

Also, it always amazes me when people say “this week I will eat 600 calories less a day because …” I cannot do that. When I wake up in the morning I can try to have a goal in terms of eating but I have no idea if I will stick to it. In this way, IF is perfect for me because I can do what I want when I want (sound spoiled and disordered, much?)

Honestly, although I still dream about non Fat Head pizza, it less now. However I would love the chance to have some but I am terrified at the same time and my fear with having 1000 calories of carbs on a weekend is that Monday morning would not be the end. I cannot believe I can go back to eating keto after 2 days off. In almost every prior diet I have been on, I would be in the zone for a couple of weeks and then there would be some special excuse to not be. Dinner at a great restaurant, how can I not have the …, party, wedding, whatever the excuse, gee that pizza smells great, I will go back tomorrow. This is practically the first time I have not found an excuse not to break the diet (ok did have two bites of dessert a week ago at a wedding but was able to stop, which amazed me). The only time I was close to this was during pregnancy (not keto then) when I did not crave carbs in the same way I would normally. I could take or leave food and only ate when I was hungry, someone who I had hired during that time could not understand why I was so fat since I did not eat much and was not very focused on food (then). After the births, this went away and I was back to normal.

While metabolic slowdown is a possibility, I got to a set point that has not been broken this century. I am still 50 lbs at least above goal. I seem to have trouble with set points. I started keto in mid April after starting IF in March. In March I discovered Fung and had a number of parties and would literally fast from one party to another (24 to 36 hours) then eat what I wanted (within reason and mostly consistent with my diet). I lost 5 lbs or so and was happy to not gain. The fasting was incredibly easy, it was much harder during the keto adaption period in April until I started feasting before a fast.

From November to April 2017 ate a primarily Mediterranean Diet lost 20lbs (most of it by January, weight loss was stalled in February and then 5 IF in March), mostly gluten and flour free, although I ate beans, cashews, quinoa and rice and had been doing that on and off since 2009, although I always had problems cheating for special occasions (that were not really that special) and then going on a week long binge. Since Keto I have lost an additional 35 or so. Mostly in April - July. My stall began in July although I probably lost about 8 lbs since then. I really only seem to lose on some type of fast and then use keto to maintain the loss and keep me from eating carbs to excess.

I do not have a blood keto meter, I have a cheap breathalyzer and reads .2 -.4 when I am fasting, usually not any other time unless I skip dinner and had very few carbs for lunch. It is showing .2 today on Day 3 of my fat fast (although I did have eggs today). Not sure if I am simply eating too many carbs most of the time. I have a tendency to eat the lower carb nuts, macadamias, raw pecans and walnuts, perhaps a little too much and cheese.
I do eat a lot normally, average about 1600 - 2600 calories a day when I track on keto.

Some history in case this impacts your thoughts:

Thin child, normal teenager but I had to watch, overweight from age 26, was a sudden weight gain as happens with IR. That was many years ago. Strong family history of T2 and autoimmune (Crohns, Celiac) and I have Hashimotos. In 2010 Lost weight due to stress at work (while restricting watching what I ate because I did not have time to always get gluten free food and exercising 2 hours x 4 per week (mostly to relieve the stress) from January to May 2010 50lbs (most in one month between March - April due to work stress). Stress ended in early May and I lost an additional 12 lbs until December. Got to the same set point as now. Kept it off for 3 years and then regained 50 lbs of it. I gain weight very easily when I do not limit carbs, could easily gain 10 lbs in a week.

Not sure I understand

Thank you again and sorry for the excess verbiage

Anyone tried glycogen recompensation (eating high carb for a short time)?
(Ken) #44

Saphire,

My response is easy to your initial question: Yes. The only caveat I would elaborate on would be to avoid grains/gluten as far as your Carb sources.

Even if you greatly overeat carb calories over a two day period, your body will not switch over to storing fat. It will however, pull you out of caloric conservation, in the metabolic sense. After your second day, don’t eat again (keto) until you actually feel hungry. It may be the next morning, or it may be much later, depending on your metabolic state. Don’t worry about measuring ketones, you’re either lipolytic or not, ketone levels are really not that significant. When restricting calories, their level may not even register, but you’re still in lipolysis. As long as you’re following the keto macro.

Your wild weight swings are not due to body fat. In order to gain a pound of fat, you have to over eat at least 3,500 calories over a given time period. It has to be while following a chronic Carb based lipogenic pattern. Wild swings of water weight are usually due to one of two things, either salt intake or glycogen recompensation.

Glycogen recompensation occurs as a short term function of storing excess carbohydrate. It is stored in the muscles and liver, around a day or so’s worth of energy . It is water weight, three molecules of water per glycogen molecule. I myself, typically swing around 12 lbs. when I recompensate, but I’m over six foot and fairly muscular. If I wanted, I could probably swing over 20lbs, between glycogen and salt induced water retention. If you want to be depleted so your tight clothes fit, cut the carbs and salt out two days before your event. You’ll pee it all back out. Around 2,000 extra Carb calories over a two day period should give you pretty complete recompensation, without any fat gain.

True, it sounds like your body readily develops leptin resistance quickly when following a chronic, Carb based pattern. The key then to avoid fat regain is to avoid a chronic pattern. Myself, if I eat carbs at one meal, I make sure I don’t eat them for another meal or two. I call this Carb Awareness, the intentional avoidance of a chronic pattern.

Carb intake, for metabolic purposes, is necessary to sustain long term fat loss. Periodic recompensation keeps your metabolism healthy.

#45

Thank you for that very thorough answer.

Although this would take all the fun out of eating carbs

The first thing I would want to eat is regular pizza. Sweet potatoes or even fruit do not get me that excited, although sushi might be nice. What about sugar? Such as in a gluten free cheese cake or flourless chocolate cake?

Is that your advice for everyone or just me because of the Hashimotos and family history of Celiac? Or because of my tenden
cy to overindulge and lose control?

I think you are spot on with that. I have been semi successful at following a fat fast, ending day 3 and have been eating progressively less each day. Today I have been losing water like crazy despite practically mainlining pink salt. I think it is the excess carbs leaving since my diet has been almost no carb for the last 3 days

Is this when you are following keto or during recompensation?

How long should I keep up the recompensation? One weekend? Two? More?

We will be out for every meal over the next two weekends so might be a good time to do this even if I am very worried. Also, H is on this with me and will think I am cheating. I do not want to into the whole explanation with him, he will just do what I do but without having done the fat fast or caloric keto restriction but he is starting to do little cheats anyway. He has only been on this since July and has lost a nice but not tremendous amount (25 lbs of 60 he had to lose), most of it over the summer, not as much lately

(Ken) #46

Saphire,

During recompensation Carb selection is really up to you. If you tolerate short term grain intake it’s fine to eat. I myself have gluten issues, if I eat a lot of it I experience a laxative effect, making the recompensation unpleasant. If I want to eat complex carbs I tend to eat them the first day, concentrating more on the simple carbs the second. That way I go back into lipolysis faster. Sugars are fine, go ahead and eat all the sweets you want, during recompensation they’re beneficial.

I do avoid excessive fat intake during recompensation, favoring things like roast beef and mashed potatoes, pie and ice cream, candy, etc. I save the high fat stuff like hollandaise sauce, sour cream, etc. for during the week.

Carb Awareness is practiced mainly during lipostasis {maintenance), when not actually trying to lose fat, but preventing any readaptation/regain.

Recompensation can occur every weekend, especially if you’re training/active. It actually can become essential if you’re being very strict during the week as far as keto macros and caloric restriction. Once you’ve adapted into lipolysis and eliminated/reduced lipogenic resistance issues, periodic Carb intake for metabolic purposes is fine.

The term “cheat” is more applicable to bodybuilders/fitness folks, when I’m actively training I may have fairly frequent cheat meals or even days, depending on how hard I’m training. Don’t think of it as cheating, think of it as glycogen recompensation for metabolic purposes. Holiday meals become recompensation, rather than guilty cheating. As long as you go into them in a glycogen depleted state.

#47

Same here! That was the tip off that I had a carb intolerance even before I knew about the connection with Hashimotos and before one of my first degree relatives was diagnosed with Celiac and another with Crohns. In my case I can have a day of eating pizza and bagels but about midway through the second day it becomes too much. The Celiac one is recent and ever since my relative got the diagnosis I have been avoiding gluten as well but I could have some nice gluten free pizza which is usually too high carb for me to want to eat

Thank you for taking the time to explain everything. I am not currently very active but have been interested in becoming more so of late. I was a few years ago but have not been lately. I have almost been deliberately inactive because I really like telling my friends who ask about exercise that I have ridden my bike 4 times in the last 4 months for a half an hour each time! I have several friends that desperately need keto and I think this has inspired them a little but that is not a reason not to exercise