What spikes insulin?

#1

Hi everyone. This is probably a stupid question, but what spikes insulin? I know carbs do, that’s a given. And I generally keep those to about 10 or under. But what about coffee, green tea or even camomile? Dairy?
By cutting down on my dairy (no, I’m not going to give it up entirely) I discovered my body began releasing more water. And obviously any water retention is something I don’t want so this is good. And so I’m just curious really what spikes insulin, and could potentially make you lose out on ketogenic eating benefits.

#2

Any High GI foods, ones that rapidly go thru your system.
plus from the net:

#3

Hi Fangs, thanks for the article. I don’t have diabetes, I am more interested to find whether there is a correlation between spiking insulin and water retention, as it’s what I at all costs try to avoid, because of my lipoedema/secondary lymphedema. I do struggle a bit on the sleep arena, but then I’m up several times because of my body shedding water. I always cover myself up in the sun really well, but huh, that’s interesting about sunburn raising blood sugar. Coffee I drink 2-3 cups a day, with cream. I still otherwise eat like a carnivore 5 days of the week with a bit of green veg on the weekend with our big family roasts. I’m not even sure I’d know if my insulin was spiked, would I feel any different? All I know is I am enjoying the good taste and simplicity of my WOE.

#4

well your biggest intake for insulin spikes would be caffeine issues maybe and then of course what veg you are eating. Mostly High GI veg intake is gonna spike.

If ya feel ok and all why ya asking about what could ‘spike ya’? just wondering. Cause a smaller spike and not having issues with the veg etc you are ingesting would mean ya 'probably ain’t gonna feel it :slight_smile:

everything we ingest thru drink or food will change our insulin obviously immediately in some fashion and some outside factors can also change that insulin response too.

#5

Ah, I was just curious, I suppose. I like to find out about things, did a lot of research about keto before I even began, and then read a ton of threads here on this forum to learn more. On the small handful of broccoli florets I eat on Sat and Sun yes I seem perfectly fine with that. Coffee is probably my worst addiction, but I am sure I could lose it if I needed to. Like I lost my dark chocolate addiction, and my whipped cream addiction. Now I’m quite happy with a lot less cream. But yes, the water retention, I must’ve had some without even realising it because when I cut down on dairy, in particularly the cream I began shedding more water, and so I found myself wondering if water retention is controlled by insulin.

#6

I feel ya on that. Smart to learn more on it all!! Only way we find ourselves and what works best but there is science involved in it all so yea, learn it up :sunny:

of course water retention is directly related to our foods we do eat, like anything high sodium is gonna retain more water, cutting carbs down will release more water etc on a simple basis for sure.

what meds we might be on…then ya got some serious medical issues that can play havoc on ‘water retention’ to bad levels etc.

I don’t believe water retention is ‘controlled’ by insulin but when ya research it on the net of course how insulin swings and med issues and more can definitely be a big factor for many.

good chat on it all!!

#7

Oh yes, meds can wreak havoc for sure. When I was put on a different brand of Tamoxifen, I suffered water retention which then led to inflammation in the lipoedema tissues. I remember my body stopped shedding the amount of water it had at the start of keto. When I was put back on my original brand of Tamoxifen which I tolerate well, this all settled, and now I am enjoying certain benefits of ketogenic eating again. I was fully carnivore when I was put on the cheaper brand of Tamox. And even though the way I’d been eating had been working fine, it wasn’t working then. Now, as my body has settled because I am back on my old trusty brand, I find myself migrating back to carnivore again. But I will see if this water shedding continues. For someone with lipoedema or lymphedema, the ketogenic WOE becomes greatly beneficial because it prevents water retention (and so also prevents inflammation) and keeps the lymphatic system healthy and functioning.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

Carbohydrates are made of glucose molecules combined in various ways. All that glucose drives up our blood sugar and requires an insulin response to deal with it. Protein has an effect on insulin, too, but it is about half the effect of carbohydrate, and when we eat protein on a low-carb diet, the net effect of protein on our insulin/glucagon ratio is minimal. Fat has almost no effect on insulin secretion except the minimum required for us to stay alive.

Some people who have looked into this feel that if we don’t eat enough fat to provide sufficient energy, the liver might make more glucose to keep our brain fed. This is one of the reasons to eat fat to satiety. Fortunately, when we cut carbohydrate to ketogenic levels, it takes less than half the amount of fat to provide the same amount of energy. I worked it out once, and it only takes 133 g of fat to provide the same number of calories as 300 g of carbohydrate.

I suspect your water-retention on dairy could possibly be the result of a sensitivity to one of the proteins in cow’s milk.

(Jane) #9

While we can’t measure insulin directly, we can infer it from our blood glucose numbers.

I wore a continuous glucose monitor for about 10 days and discovered some interesting things about my own body:

  1. Rice spiked my insulin the most, but the drop back down was just as sharp.
  2. Bread was second. Carby veggies such as potatoes and corn not as much.
  3. I got a glucose spike from eating a “sugar free” ice cream bar with sugar alcohols. Needless to say I stopped buying them. No big deal and not even sure why I was buying them since I don’t crave sweets.
  4. I got a small glucose drop from my stevia. Since it has zero calories I can assume the drop came from a slight insulin response that lowered my glucose. I still prefer it in my coffee and the drop was small so I don’t worry about it, but it was informative. No drop from erithrytol.
  5. I didn’t test dairy per se, since I never ate it by itself - always with other foods. I guess the small amount of cream in my coffee was ok since that was when I saw the drop in glucose which I assume was from the stevia.
#10

Hi Paul, thanks for your reply. I think my fat/ratio would from what you write not impact insulin much. I eat moderate protein, today for example, first meal a plate of leftover gammon joint, some bacon and cheese. Second meal a plate of chicken thighs. And I fancy a couple of pork chops for a third meal. I usually eat 2-3 meals and always eat to satiety. Fatty meat is sinfully good, pork belly tomorrow. The dairy could be the cause of the water retention, as by cutting down I seem to be shedding more water. But then I am also drinking a lot more water than I was, so it’s tricky to say. I never measure blood sugar, ketones etc. I just keep to this highly simplified WOE of mine and hope I’ll be fine. So far it all seems good.

(Bob M) #11

Does no one know that protein spikes insulin? Whey protein is so insulinogenic that it can be used to reduce post-prandial blood sugar response:

(Joey) #12

@never2late You’ve gotten good input from others above, but I thought I’d note that “spiking” means different things to different folks. Dawn effect, insulin sensitivity vs resistance, and the fact that insulin is a natural hormone our bodies need for most essential diurnal/nocturnal functions to work correctly for good health, all factor into the mix - and shed light on what a “spike” might represent.

Having said this, it’s the “excursions” of large magnitude around one’s baseline that are problematic - not simply a short-lived elevation above/below your otherwise healthy “average” glucose level. This will be a function of the content of the food you’ve eaten, your sensitivity/resistance to insulin, exercise, time of day, etc.

Based on what you’ve shared above, it seems highly unlikely that are inviting significant insulin excursions. As you’re aware, the water retention issue is tangential to insulin, but as @PaulL often notes, highly correlated with carbohydrate consumption, inasmuch as restricting carbs is a great way to reduce excess water retention.

On another separate topic, given your mention of Rx history, I’ll offer a book suggestion that might interest you… If you haven’t already done so, check out Dr. Thomas Seyfried’s “Cancer as a Metabolic Disease.” It is well worth reading and may offer additional insights and encouragement, i.e., that you are on the right track with your WOE…

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/book/10.1002/9781118310311

As a lifelong learner, you will no doubt appreciate how thoroughly footnoted it is with source references of peer-reviewed research from reputable sources.

:vulcan_salute:

#13

Hi Joey, thanks for your reply and input. And I might have a look at that book, though I tend to shy away from articles and literature regarding cancer. Admittedly I read a good bit about cancer in the context of fasting and autophagy and concluded, because of my medical history, IF/EF wasn’t for me. However, I can well believe there is a correlation between metabolic health and cancer. And I know I am on the right path with this WOE, as before on my high carb, low fat diet, although I was slim, I struggled with chronic inflammation, water retention, joint pains and lipoedema pains, and obviously I was struck by the big C, so I suspect I wasn’t metabolically healthy. Since keto the inflammation and pain has been much reduced, which is amazing. I have a suspicion keto isn’t necessarily going to cure my lipoedema, but that it could prevent progression, that is certainly possible. If I was metabolically unhealthy before keto, I don’t believe the short space of time I’ve been doing keto has necessarily healed my metabolic health. It takes years, I imagine. But, I am certainly feeling positive about keto and entertain now the hope that in three years I could stop taking Tamoxifen, because of it.

(Joey) #14

@never2late I can certainly appreciate not wanting to do any more “deep dives” into cancer research than you’ve likely already been dragged through given your experiences.

I’ll spare you with this bottom line summary…

Seyfried recaps the relevant research to conclude that cancerous growths - especially those that metastasize - need glucose to run amok (short version).

Keeping serum glucose lower is therefore beneficial (vs a higher-carb WOE). Under the hood, this involves getting cellular mitochondria to switch over to “fat-burn” adapation through carb-restriction.

FWIW, my own experience tracks with yours other than that I haven’t faced the challenge of cancer (which seems to run my family, hence my keen interest - notwithstanding Seyfried’s skepticism re: the simplified “it’s genetic” premise). But the systemic inflammation, joint pains, water weight, despite being slim (during all those years on a low fat/high carb diet) all disappeared when reversing my WOE to low carb/high saturated animal fat.

Power to you!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

He has a point, I think. Despite any genetic predisposition that someone might have, his argument makes sense (to me, at least) for it to be metabolic damage to the cells that starts a cancer off. What would interest me, in this connexion, is a discussion of which cancers are best held in check by a low-carb diet, and which ones feed off of ketones, and why.

Dr. Dawn Lemanne is a clinical oncologist in the Pacific Northwest of the United States who has given a couple of lectures at Low Carb Down Under events, and her experience is that there are a few cancers that progress more rapidly on a ketogenic diet. She says, however, that normally a ketogenic diet is a good adjuvant therapy to radiation or chemotherapy.

#16

Hi Paul. Dr Fung wrote a book called the cancer code. I haven’t actually read it, but I watched his youtube video regarding what causes cancer and the concensus was long term chronic inflammation is likely behind it, or the start of it. So I can well believe cancer and cell damage correlates with damaged metabolic health.

It would be useful as you pointed out if we could have some grasp of which types of cancers could potentially be made worse on a ketogenic WOE, feeding off ketones, and which run on glucose and so could be starved and kept from developing on keto.

However, as a method of prevention, and I Iike to think I fall in that bracket now, ketogenic eating should still prove substantially healthier than consuming a lot of carbs and sugars.

#17

Hi Joey, if cancer runs in your family, or has struck your family members then I certainly understand your keen interest in it, as we arm ourselves with knowledge in the face of the unknown. But of course none of us can predict the future, and make ourselves superbeings resilient to everything. We can only do our best with the knowledge and experience we’ve amassed.

I am aware a lot of cancers feed off glucose or sugar. Before cancer struck me I was eating a lot of sugar. But because I was slim and I saw myself generally healthy, I never gave it any thought. Upon receiving my diagnosis I quit refined sugars on the spot, but still I didn’t realise the problem with fructose, and that sugars are virtually in everything. Now, eating ketogenically and keeping my carbs to under 10, I am hoping to heal my system over time. And that it is the right decision. It’s certainly a WOE I enjoy.

(Joey) #18

Agreed. It’s the genetic predisposition that I was alluding to (at least, in my case).

But Seyfried’s arguments are based on (seemingly reliable and relevant) research and seem pretty convincing to this layman.

(Joey) #19

That’s the often misunderstood aspect of low-carb eating. It doesn’t feel like a “diet” in any common sense of that term. It’s thoroughly enjoyable and super tasty, satisfying, and limited largely by one’s appetite/hunger level.

#20

Yes indeed Joey, that’s why I call the food on this WOE sinfully good🙂My favourite is streaky bacon, pork belly and the fatty bits of a pork chop, I don’t care much for the lean meat. Happiness is a piece of fat to chew nicely salted, like the pork crackling off a pork shoulder joint. Ah, I could wax on about the pleasure of eating fat, but it would get very dull to read, lol.