What if Keto Just Doesn't Work for Everyone?

(What The Fast?!) #1

Guys, bear with me on this one. I know there’s a lot of confirmation bias in the keto community (yours truly included - I have preached keto and shouted it from the rooftop for the past 18 months)…but what if keto simply doesn’t work for EVERYONE like we think it does?

To clarify - I’m talking specifically about weight loss - I’m NOT referring to other NSV’s.

For a long time, I thought my story was a unique one - eating strict keto but not experiencing any of the weight loss that everyone talks about. I thought…gosh, maybe I’m just doing something wrong. And so, I keto-ed harder. I reduced carbs further, but no avail. Then I thought - okay, maybe I just need to fast. Even though it never felt natural like others talked about - first with IF, then with EF’s - 24, 36, 72, and even a 5 day fast. None of it felt good, but who cares, I just wanted to see some weight loss results. More protein, less protein, harder workouts, easier workouts, fasted workouts, fueled workouts, more fat, less fat. So I thought - okay, I’m broken. Clearly. There is no other explanation. My body responds like a lean mass hyper responder (a la @DaveKeto) but without the “lean” part.

However, recently, I started to hear more and more people talking about this outcome - both here in this forum and in other places on the interwebs. It seems like many others have a similar struggle - they follow the “rules” but don’t get the weight loss results. And, it seems like it’s happening mainly to women who don’t have metabolic derangement. (Though this could be inaccurate; that’s where I’m seeing it most but it’s also the communities I’m involved in most.)

So guys, let’s just stop for a second and ask ourselves - honestly ask ourselves without bias or emotional ties - what if keto doesn’t work (for weight loss) for everyone? AND, if that’s the case…what WILL work?

I’m on a personal journey to figure out what this means for me. I was maintaining on a “clean eating/Paleo style” of eating just the same as I am now with keto…which is to say, I was struggling to lose weight with that method as well. I don’t know what the answer is, but I think we should discuss it openly.

EDITING TO ADD: I also don’t feel like trash on the very few occasions when I’ve added carbs intentionally. In fact, I feel great. But, I kind of always feel great - before going keto, during keto, etc.

PS While this post is not just about my own personal struggle (it’s really written for those people who feel like it MUST be their fault that they’re not losing weight even though they’re doing things by the book) - I want to answer questions that I know I will inevitably receive: Yes, I have fat to lose (32% verified by several DEXA scans). No, I’m not just exchanging fat for muscle (again, several DEXA’s). Yes, I’m fat-adapted and have been for over a year. No, I don’t have sneaky carbs (I track everything). Yes, I test for ketosis and am always in nutritional ketosis. No, I don’t have T2D or any other conditions. Yes, I work out - endurance, weight training, and Pilates currently. Yes, I’ve had my thyroid tested and verified fine by a keto-friendly doctor, Dr Ken Berry.

PPS I know this is controversial, so please don’t jump down my throat - I feel this is an important topic to discuss - EVEN IF it’s inaccurate…let’s be open to different opinions/ideas.

(Heather ) #2

I will be interested in seeing what everyone replies. I literally just had this same discussion with my boyfriend over the weekend. I’m about 8 weeks in (yes, still new) but like with every weight loss journey I have been on, I drop weight initially and stall out. Minus the amount of time spent doing keto, my stats are just like yours.
Huge hug…I feel your frustration.

(Doug) #3

Well, A, with your admirable insulin sensitivity, I certainly think you’re right about the “not metabolically deranged” group, and on the whole women do seem to have a tougher time than men. Your case is an extremely interesting one, and I wonder that too - just what will work?

We want the world to be understandable, and I think something is lacking here. My gut feeling is that it’s a “weight set point” thing (to the extent that such is real) and that your body is being very resistant to the changes you want. Evolutionarily, I think we are better at responding to lowered weight versus increased weight, harking back to the dangers of starvation. “Ohmigod we’re starving,” rather than “Well, we’re up in a little in weight compared to X number of years ago but we’re fine…”

For 14 months I’ve been reading your posts, and your will power and willingness to do things are impressive, to say the least. One thing I can’t remember is if you looked at “gut issues,” i.e. intestinal flora, probiotic foods, etc…?

There are certain areas of the brain that apparently control our response to our current weight, and we’re only in our infancy as far as really figuring it all out. I really wish I had something good to say that would be of immediate help. As things are, I want to go kick something.

(the cheater) #4

That’s an interesting position. I think the science behind keto means that it does work for anyone metabolically, but maybe not for weight loss; after all, weight loss is just one of the more pleasant and common side effects. Perhaps keto might be something worth revisiting once you’ve dropped the weight you need to drop?

I will note that I think a lot of people do it wrong (I know, I know, n=1, etc., who tf am I, personal bias yadda yadda). I see people’s calorie counts, macro counts, etc. that are way off the charts as far as what works for me and I wonder how they can possibly be losing weight - and it’s usually those people struggling with losing weight.

When I first started on my keto journey, had a pretty serious caloric deficit; I was sitting around 1700 calories (planned) but usually only ever got to about 1500 or so. I was 6’ and 220lbs, so you can imagine the hate that would have garnered if I had advertised that. I had a guy at the BodyBuilding forums say that the only person that was enough calories for was a 12 year old girl (or something to that effect; it was rude but he had a ton of “rep”). I disagreed. I felt great and was losing weight despite weekly massive cheat sessions.

I don’t know. You gotta do what works for you. I believe that you believe you’ve been doing everything right :wink:
But, of course, you never know if someone might be able to point out one tiny thing that might change your world, you know?

The science of keto is sound - but the science of weight loss is still a convoluted mess.

(Allie) #5

I don’t believe there’s any one size fits all for anyone, human bodies are just too different.

I heard on a podcast today that people won’t lose fat on keto if they’re deficient in vitamin B1 as without it, the body just cannot burn fat. Don’t know if that is helpful to your or not but thought it worth a mention.

#6

Several clinicians, Dr Limansky, Dr Cole, Robb Wolf and others who have a large base of clients, have come across folks who don’t do well on a HFLC diet. I remember hearing one of them estimate it to be about 15%.

Mike Mutzel has a vlog/podcast called High Intensity Health. You may want to check out episode 237: In Ketosis Yet Slow Weight Loss (tips to correct).

(What The Fast?!) #7

So this is interesting to me. I have heard this many times. People lose weight even if they have fallen off the wagon occasionally. In fact…I see this just as much as I see “I have been strict with no cheats and cannot lose.” In John Kiefer’s Carb Nite Solution book, he talks about how important it is to get OUT of ketosis and spike insulin once every week or so. I’m not saying you were cheating that often, but there may be something to the fact that your success continued - maybe not in spite of cheating, but because of it.

(What The Fast?!) #8

Thanks - I started taking methylated B vitamins a couple months ago. I’ll see if B1 is in there.

Will do ASAP.

#9

I’m not sure what you mean when you say keto doesn’t “work”; for example, are you saying if you were to eat X number of calories on SAD you would lose weight, but if you eat the exact same number of calories on keto, you don’t lose weight? That would be surprising to me. Because it all comes down to CICO (my belief and I know that’s controversial). Keto didn’t “work” for me either because it made me GAIN weight when I was trying to lose. But to be honest, that’s because I was eating WAY to many calories (all keto-friendly). I’ve finally cut my calories and my weight is on its way back down. I’m still eating keto but it’s the calorie cutting, not the keto, that’s making me lose weight.

(What The Fast?!) #10

I have tried calorie restriction on both high carb diets as well as on keto. This has not worked for me. It’s clearly more than just CICO. I was training 12 hours a week AND restricting calories for MONTHS and my weight did not budge. The only thing that DID budge was my metabolic rate. I had it tested in a lab at the onset of the “cut” and at 7 weeks in. It reduced dramatically while my weight did not.

#11

That’s very frustrating, but that shows it’s not keto’s fault (since you had trouble on high carb as well). I don’t really have anything helpful to say, other than, keto is only a tool, and maybe there is another explanation for why you can’t lose weight (I have no idea what that would be).

(What The Fast?!) #12

Right, but there are a lot of other people for whom keto doesn’t result in weight loss. It’s not just me and that’s why I started the thread. This is an important topic - realizing that keto isn’t a magic weight loss bullet for everyone. Again, I have had other positive responses to keto - both mental health related and also a clear reduction in inflammation (no more allergies), but the weight loss piece just isn’t there.

#13

It certainly wasn’t a magic bullet for me. My dentist even still said my teeth were bad! The only magic that it did for me was take away my elbow pain that had been there for a year. Poof within 2-3 days it disappeared.

(What The Fast?!) #14

Also, this is super condescending. If you’d like to log in to my MyFitnessPal and Strava to see the work I’m putting in, feel free.

Great question. For almost a year, I had extreme constipation on keto when I did NOT have it in the past. I got a food intolerance test done and had to cut out like 75% of the foods I was eating (including beef and chicken, btw). It turns out avocado was at the top of the list and I’ve yet to add it back in. I also now take 60-90Billion CFU probiotics and I alternate between 2-3 different types each day so my body doesn’t get used to them.

#15

I don’t think ANYTHING works for everyone.

But at the same time, I wouldn’t assume that all the supposedly ‘metabolic healthy’ who don’t lose weight are all actually ‘metabolically healthy’ because it is such a loose term. There is just so much variation between people and ‘healthy’ covers a lot of ground.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #16

I can’t begin to guess how frustrating not losing the weight must be for you, but you certainly have a point. Even Dr. Phinney believes that about 20% (as I recall) of the population has no need of a ketogenic diet, since they seem to be able to handle any quantity of carbohydrate without a problem. I also came across a study recently that suggested that perhaps both extremes of the spectrum (lots of fat, almost no carbs vs. lots of carbs, almost no fat) can bring about weight loss in the right people, certainly, if not everyone.

And for all that I’ve been pushing moderate protein—following Dr. Phinney—in my advice to newbies, now Dr. Naiman has me wondering if more protein isn’t better (a recent Ancestral Health lecture mentioned several studies on protein leverage that I am checking out). Benjamin Bikman got me started, but Dr. Naiman’s presentation has really got me thinking. Protein leverage is certainly a plausible hypothesis; I know for sure it works in rats; I’ve seen it.

(KetoQ) #17

Thanks for posting your thoughts … and I whole-heartedly agree, keto may not be the optimal lifestyle/WOE/weight loss answer for everyone. Although it has worked wonders for me.

Who would have thought that over the past 20-30 years while we’ve been hearing the low fat mantra … that high fat (and low carb) could be an incredibly effective option for some people?

I, for one, do not want to be as closed minded and as dogmatic as some in other WOE communities are when it comes to keto. I hope that there is a WOE for everyone to find health, weight control and a fuller life … whatever that is.

(What The Fast?!) #18

I’ve been thinking the same. I recently stopped restricting protein. I’m now eating around 95-120g a day, depending on the day. I used to restrict protein but I think with all the strength training, I need it. I also found (per DEXA), that I had lost muscle on keto when I was restricting it (likely due to the fact that I was training intensely on the bike for too many hours with not enough carbs, so my body had to make its own glucose - but that’s a whole different ball of yarn).

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #19

@KetoLikeaLady Andrea, I got sidetracked by my train of thought in the earlier post. I meant to ask whether you have any thoughts of switching to some other way of eating, and what your thinking on the topic might be. Not to push you in one direction or another, just wondering if you’ve thought about it.

For myself, I haven’t lost any weight for quite a few months, but then my reason for starting keto was fear of developing diabetes. My last bloodwork came back completely normal, so that goal has been achieved, and I’d be afraid of messing around with that, because diabetes and other metabolic diseases run rampant in both sides of my family. So as much as I’d like more weight loss, I am quite happy with what I achieved, even though I’d lilke to achieve more (a lot of my life is like that, lol!). So that’s how I’m thinking about it; would you happen to feel like sharing your thoughts? No judgements—promise! :bacon:

(the cheater) #20

Look at my title next to my username :slight_smile:

I’m all about cheating. Years ago, I was roughly the same starting weight (~220) and lost the same amount of weight (50-60lbs) in roughly the same time (6 mos), even though I wasn’t keto. One of my big keys to success was the weekly cheat (and yes, I am VERY outspoken about being pro-cheating). It keeps me on track, because the other 98% of the time (literally, I’ve calculated it) I’m strict keto and IF. It’s true that I feel physically not-so-great after a cheat, but I’m never tempted to keep it up: in fact, feeling less than great after a cheat keeps me motivated to stay strict keto for the next week.

Of course, this is a very taboo subject in some circles - even here, at times. But you’re right; there’s the cyclic keto diet, which is I suppose is basically what I do without intending to. I just know that I’m in ketosis most of the time, feel wonderful and healthy, have a little sugary fun once a week, and the next day, I KCKO. No guilt, no regrets, no issues. That said, I guess there’re people that literally cannot handle it - that is, if there’s half a sleeve of unfinished Oreos left over from the night before, some people wouldn’t have the willpower to save it until the next week or get rid of it. I do. *shrugs * In any case, YMMV :smiley: - good luck!