What if I'm not in Ketosis? Are high-fat meals harmful?

(Tracy) #1

I hope this makes sense:

I don’t own a ketone meter nor do I track macros because I don’t want to dread eating. Sometimes I wonder if I’m under 20 carbs a day since those incidentals can add up. My blood sugar stays under 100 after meals and I’ve maintained my weight at 130 pounds for 6 months (started at 145). I guess my question is if I have days when I’m not in ketosis, what damage can I do by eating a high fat meal while out of ketosis? I always assume once you convert to using fat for energy you can’t make mistakes otherwise you confuse your body. I’m sure this theory I’ve dreamed up is senseless. The same way I assumed cholesterol you eat goes straight to your veins eventually clogging them up.

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #2

If you drop out occasionally and have a high fat meal I wouldn’t stress. It’s when you eat high-carb and high-fat over a long time that it can become a problem.

Also, keep in mind that the 20g limit is arbitrary. Some people have a higher threshold for carbs. You’ll probably know if you are out of ketosis by how you feel.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #3

You look like you’re doing a great job and I will assume you’re at a fairly healthy weight. You may want to lose more but you don’t seem very overweight. I wouldn’t worry about things as they are, if your blood work is healthy. You may not like it but carefully tracking carbs for a few months is very useful. Think of it as educating yourself with a new KETO life skill, not something to stress or cause fear of eating. Knowledge is power and with that power you might feel less stressed knowing you’re making sound decisions when you go back to a more lazy KETO. Don’t track all macros, just carbs. This is really useful if you’re eating stuff like condiments, nuts, berries, and less obvious stuff like dairy, eggs and processed meats…pretty much all foods other than fats or pure meats have some carbs. I tracked for about 5 months after six months of not tracking and I’m not tracking again now for a couple of months. I found that period of tracking extremely useful for analytical purposes and understanding how my food choices affected my weight loss. Now I maintain that loss without tracking but it definitely helped me get here quicker. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Bob M) #4

Ah, it’s saturated fat that does that, not cholesterol. :wink:

(Tracy) #5

Saturated fats clog arteries? Is that to say they should be avoided? I’m asking because several books I’ve read say saturated fats are fine and don’t cause cardiac disease.

(Tracy) #6

I tracked for the first 3 months so that I would know what Keto looked like in comparison to the low-carb I had always attempted and failed at. I just remember how those incidentals really added up. There were days I’d have broccoli and it would cause me to go over my carbs and I thought, “Seriously? I have to watch my broccoli intake?”. I stuck with it though, broccoli deprivation and all.

(Bob M) #7

That smiley face was supposed to mean that comment was in jest. I’ve been low carb/keto since 1/1/14. Got a coronary arterial calcification scan done just recently, which measures the calcification of your arteries of the heart. Got a score of zero. 90% of the population my age (55) has a higher score:

image

If saturated fat clogs arteries, it’s not doing a great job in my case.

(Robert C) #8

It depends both on your definition of “not in ketosis” and why you are not in ketosis.

  • If “not in ketosis” to you means (if you did measure it) that you were at 0.4 mmol/L (where 0.5 mmol/L is the usually accepted bottom limit) - in other words, barely below the bottom end due to some extra sweet potato or something (i.e. the “why you are not in ketosis” is due to a slight whole foods miscalculation) - a high fat meal is going to be fine. “Damage” would be minimal - you’re still producing some ketones - in an hour or two I bet you’d probably measure back above 0.5 mmol/L.

But

  • If “not in ketosis” to you means “I am pretty sure that pint of ice cream put me out of ketosis” then yes, the “why” (a cheat day or just wanting ice cream or whatever) is going to spike insulin and turn on all of the pathways involved in fat storage. Add a high fat keto meal and it would be getting close to eating most of a large pizza. A great strategy for fattening.

This is why I suggest that people flip to calorie restriction when they can’t or won’t control carbs. For example, a month long trip through Europe with many dinners out intentionally to eat local non-low-carb delicacies. That is probably not the time to do your keto hacks of adding fat to everything because the carbs will get that extra fat stored for you (it also can make the local delicacies taste differently than intended).

(Tracy) #9

Sorry, I’m easily spooked. I should have known you were kidding because you always give me such sound advice. Like most things in life, I’m afraid of the CAC test. I’m going to assume I’m zero at the age of 41 since finding out any different would only cause me anxiety. Plus, there’s nothing you can do to reverse the damage, right? I’m comforted when people tell me they have been on Keto for years, especially when I hear their arteries are clear. Were you ever overweight? I look back on how I used to eat and I’m amazed I’m still alive. I spent 7 years morbidly obese and I wonder what kind of damage I did to my arteries.

(Tracy) #10

I can say without a doubt, in six months I’ve never had a cheat day or splurged on a slice of bread or a sweet treat. The worse I’ve done is go over my carbs by about 10, when I was trying to stay under 20. I used to track everything I ate with an app just to get an idea of what keto was compared to a low-carb diet. After educating myself about the differences in Keto and low-carb I realized that I was changing the way my body used food for fuel. The dietitian who advised me on Keto told me it would take several weeks for my cells to be adapted to using fat for energy instead of glucose. After hearing that, I assumed once converted to fat burning, confusing my body with glucose, even rarely and in small amounts, would cause problems. The problems being knocked out of ketosis and therefore making my meals high-fat and unhealthy. I think I also heard Dr. Oz say that if you go on Keto, you can’t splurge on a bun every once in a while because now you are on a high-fat, high-carb diet and that’s very dangerous. So here’s a question - let’s say a person who eats a high-fat, high-carb diet all the time fasts for a day. Do they go into ketosis? If so, is ketosis that easily achieved? Why would I be told it takes weeks for me to convert my body to fat burning rather than glucose burning?

(Robert C) #11

Yes - after the glycogen burn off (which might be a bit more or less than 24 hours depending on how much they started with and whether they started the fast in the morning or evening). Then the body will have no choice but to go after its body fat (making the liver produce ketones).

I would say for the body, it is “choicelessly” achieved. For the individual taking in a lot of carbs and abruptly fasting - that 24 hours would not be described as even a little bit easy.

You are writing about fat adaptation - that is different from just forcing your liver produce ketones. For example, after the high fat+high carb dieter fasts for around 24 hours - they will be producing ketones but, since they are not fat adapted, they’ll be craving carbs like crazy. A fat adapted person can do OMAD (eat one-meal-a-day) with little or no cravings.

Here’s more on fat adapted:
https://keto-mojo.com/article/what-is-fat-adapted-how-long-it-takes/

(Tracy) #12

That explains a lot RobC. I remember the day I started craving fat, specifically bacon dipped in egg yolks. I remember thinking it was so odd because never in my life had ever craved anything other than sweets. Eating regular food was something I did to survive but all my joy came from scones and donuts. That must have been when I was becoming fat adapted. I spent a lifetime of craving carbs hourly and living not the blood sugar roller coaster. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #13

I would call this normal for sometimes. It’s sustained raising of carbs that might have an effect, depending on your personal tolerance to stay in ketosis. Lots of people are fine at that level all the time.

:cowboy_hat_face:

(Bunny) #14

Actually people don’t eat enough fat even on a high carb diet to the point where they can’t produce enough bile to break down dietary fats.

It is the hydrogenated fats and refined sugars that really throws a wrench into the clock work.

Higher Complex carbohydrates (Whole Foods) do better with high dietary fat intake than simple carbohydrates (refined sugars, processed foods).

(Alvin Jay Samante) #15

I hope this helps!
Not that long enough yet since I started keto diet! But based from my observation and readings and asking people around here in our country who’s into keto, it will just be harmful if you mixed it with carbs. Fats + Carbs = High Blood Pressure.

:grinning:

(Tracy) #16

I think that’s what I’m getting at when I say is it “dangerous” to be out of ketosis and eat a high fat diet. Being out of ketosis, meaning I’ve had too many incidental carbs, so is there danger by mixing that with high fat? Is fat ever the culprit for clogging arteries or is the artery clogging to blame on diabetes, high blood pressure, inflammation, etc.?