What happens to those fat cells?


#68

Where else can you ask a “simple” question and learn so much?


(Mame) #69

Is it? I am not so sure about this. Except for unfertilized eggs stored in ovaries doesn’t every single cell have a life span that is shorter than the body’s life span? That means they have to be cleaned up after they die. although perhaps some like fat cells are automatically replaced one for one.

This does make sense to me in that one’s fat storing capability remains fairly constant, although I would posit that for women it changes with age. (maybe) Post menopausal one would not need the same amount of fat stores to protect the next generation. I hope that our body is smart enough to know this. Why waste resources creating fat on thighs and bum one no longer needs… Something to look forward to as I get older! :slightly_smiling_face:

LOL


(Ethan) #70

That is exactly correct. The body replace the cell with another.


(Mame) #71

I believe this is what we think happens but I have not seen this proved…it’s a reasonable theory but then 20 years ago everyone was sure new brain cells weren’t made after age 25…


(Ethan) #72

Yes that is true. It is based on evidence, but not complete evidence.


#73

Ahhh… good to know that, thanks!


#74

There is also a lot of fluid loss with glycogen from the liver and reduced inflammation of the fat lining the digestive tract. It may be difficult to measure inside organs and the actual fat loss compared to the reduction of ‘fat mass’ which includes supportive tissue and fluid.

But yes, the triglycerides inside the liver should be used rapidly when conditions allow compared to peripheral tissues.


(The remembrance of bacon past.) #75

Dr. Robert Lustig says that the medical literature distinguishes between the obese with metabolic damage and the MHO (metabolically-healthy obese), who are perfectly healthy, with completely normal metabolic markers. The latter apparently make up about 20% of the obese population.

The reverse situation is lean people, who are generally healthy, but 30% of whom are just as metabolically deranged as we usually assume the obese are. These 30% look lean but are riddled with viseral fat, and one researcher coined the now-standard term TOFI for them: “thin on the outside, fat on the inside.”

So you are quite right to say that obesity and metabolic derangement are by no means the same thing.


(Bunny) #76

Granted we are not a mouse or rat, that’s what they might be finding in knock out mice and rats that are humanized with the 48 hour fasting and 25% loss in visceral fat or they reached this conclusion on actual human beings?

The article on this suddenly disappeared from the endocrinology journal I was reading or I am just having trouble tracking it down, I swear I bookmarked it twice and it’s now gone?


#77

Happens to me all the time!


(DougH) #78

Hard to know short of a muscle biopsy, and that is a nope from me.

Strength is a combination of many things, but hypertrophy is definetly one of the legs of the stool. As you do any resistance training some strength gains are form and some is neurological capacity, but you eventually top out at some individualized level without introducing hypertrophy.

If you weren’t giving your body signals to preserve your leg muscle it very well may have decided that was an area that could have been given up for some protein.


(Nasir) #79

I have a feeling I am in this group. Very large thighs, subcutaneous fat on/around belly, arms and under arms etc. Normal BG (A1C is 5.2), normal BP, normal lipids. Fairly active (longest bike ride 60KM+, longest walk 12KM+ etc despite being morbidly obese, 350+lbs now down to 305lbs)
Any other “symptoms” of being in this group? Any suggestions for weight loss for this group other than KCKO?


(The remembrance of bacon past.) #80

Dr. Phinney advises people who are feeling stuck to cut their carbohydrate even further. If that doesn’t work, he says, eat more fat. On no account, he says, should you increase your carb intake.

Some carnivores say that going carnivore was the only thing that helped them lose weight.


(Ethan) #81

Yep. I was stalled for 15 months on keto. Went carnivore and lost 15+ pounds nearly immediately and the needle is still moving


(Kirk Wolak) #82

Dr. Cywes who does gastric bypass type surgeries… Said clearly, they fast their patients to get their livers to shrink… So this is an effect we clearly see in humans, and it happens way faster than the subcutaneous fat removal!


(Bunny) #83

That’s interesting, I can just imagine the compression going on when the internal organs are surrounded by visceral fat. So shrinking the liver might help with that?

So why does the liver become so enlarged in the Inuit Eskimos?

”…When carbohydrate intake is inadequate for total energy requirements, protein is broken down in the liver through gluconeogenesis and utilized as an energy source. Inuit studied in the 1970s were found to have abnormally large livers, presumably to assist in this process. Their urine volumes were also high, a result of additional urea which the body uses to purge waste products from gluconeogenesis.[11] However, in multiple studies the traditional Inuit diet has not been shown to be a ketogenic diet.[12][13][14][15] Not only have multiple researchers been unable to detect any evidence of ketosis resulting from the traditional Inuit diet, but the ratios of fatty-acid to glucose were observed to be well below the generally accepted level of ketogenesis.[12][13][14][15] …” …More

Interesting?

Fatty-acid fuel?

”…The liver primarily uses fatty acid oxidation for energy. Muscle cells use fatty acids, glucose, and amino acids as energy sources. Most cells use glucose for ATP synthesis, but there are other fuel molecules equally important for maintaining the body’s equilibrium or homeostasis…” …More

…Or in the case of Eskimo amino acid fuel?


(Kirk Wolak) #84

– Forgive me, I fixed the quotes being out of order. Sorry!

Yes, of course…

First, I am having a TOUGH time getting past that first sentence.
Honestly, when Carbohydrates are below TDE, then we digest our protein. UTTER BS IMO
When Carbs are low enough to force us into Ketosis after the liver burns through it’s glycogen (that first 3 days), Then ketosis is used (and only when that is RUSTY and not working well, do we digest in an emergency, existing protein… Because the body is not stupid enough to live off of muscle when fat is there for energy storage!)

But this is NOT the same as “fasting”, and I trust a modern day surgeon, touching the livers of obese people, who had an ultrasound of my liver done, LONG before I trust 1970s comments on what may be second or third hand information.

OMG: I just realized you are quoting from Wikipedia… The LEAST Trusted Source on anything.
Sorry… Absolutely cannot trust them.

And this flies in the face of Ketogenic Diets as well as other documented reports written in books, like Fat of the Land, which I would trust far more…

HTH!


(Bunny) #85

According to who?

Logically “they” must follow and who is they?

It has cited sources of research and then we have you making a statement with no supported research other than hysterical remarks from no cited source?

What flies in the face of what? What are we talking about specifically, you lost me?


(Kirk Wolak) #86

Bunny,
Sorry, let me be clear. I have seen clear evidence of MASSIVE bias on Wikipedia. NO College/University Campuses allow students to cite WikiPedia as a reference. I have friends who have downright lies written about them on WikiPedia and the best they could do was to have themselves REMOVED under threat of a lawsuit, as opposed to fixing the obvious errors.

That Aside. We are talking about the Liver. The shrinking that happens when you fast someone. That is where I started. Used by Dr. Cywes who says he has pictures of thousands of such livers, and he can tell… In fact his original University Research work showed that Glucose, not fat, led to Fatty Liver disease, he studied under Prof Tim Noakes at the time!

So, back to what I said. Yep, I provided ZERO references for it. I stand by (b/c it is so widely discussed and known in this community, by real people, dealing with real patients, easy to find):

  1. Liver Shrinks during fasting as it’s own glycogen/fat is used
  2. Ketogenic Diets Mimic Fasting, insofaras forcing the liver to to burn fat in absence of carbs
  3. You can IGNORE the article MERELY based on the fact that (According to them, the Inuit were not in ketosis, and did not eat a Ketogenic diet).

My experience on this journey will confirm as Massive shrinking of my liver as I lost over 100lbs, and my visceral fat was significantly reduced to the point that my body fat was Normal! Confirmed by a Dexa scan. Liver size measured by an ultrasound shows it’s now at/below the normal size for someone at my height and weight. (I lost 15 inches around my waist)


(Bunny) #87

The size of the liver in which you are referencing from i.e. a ketogenic diet and comparing that to Eskimo health are not the same thing, it is not a ketogenic diet in any comparative reasoning.

Currently modern-industrialized Eskimo eat a mixed diet; half traditional and half SAD (see Inuit Paradox by Discovery Magazine). Traditional Eskimo still exist and send their industrialized relatives traditional foods. That mixed diet is killing them.

Why an oversized liver? Excessive glucose/glycogen storage from eating too much (over-eating) protein? That’s also means not changing the amount of protein your eating, you then notice that you stop burning body fat when your not active so you would have to cut back the protein even more to see any results because your still burning lots of sugar and sending it to your muscle and liver as glycogen and even fat cells store glycogen not just lipid droplets or fat when bile is released, then re-absorbed, so meal timing is something to think about also.

A lot of people wonder why their weight loss stalls and it is because they over-eat protein for their individual metabolism.

The bigger your liver is, the more glucose/glycogen your liver will store including muscle tissue so when you over-eat protein the longer it will take to deplete the reserves so that’s why fasting or time restricted eating shrinks the liver with time. But more importantly the more muscle volume you have to adipose ratio will oxidize glucose before it is stored as a lipid droplet in a fat cell.