What forum here would be most appropriate for the posting of ketone numbers?

(Jaybub) #1

Looking to discuss blood ketone numbers (BHOB) and the foods/factors that affect them. What’s the best place here to discuss this?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #2

We have a Progress forum, which might be a good place. If you want the freedom to be a bit more frank about your issues, there is a sub-category in that forum, called Accountability, which is locked and therefore protected from non-members and random Internet searches.

(Jaybub) #3

Thanks Paul. I got down voted and ran out of /r/keto for “chasing ketones”. Looking for some place that I and others can dive into the numbers without being witch hunted. I’ll check it out!

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #4

Gosh I hope that does not happen here. We are very supportive. Everyone is on their own journey. N=1 experiments. I learn a lot from other people’s approaches.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #5

We don’t advise chasing ketones on these forums, simply because the data show that past around 1.5 mmol, there is no additional benefit if the ketone level increases.

I personally could never eat this way if counting calories or measuring ketones were a requirement. But, hey, if that’s what floats your boat, have fun! :bacon::bacon:

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #6

I beg to differ if you are fasting for anticancer benefits or other autophagy benefits.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #7

The main thing is if you care about your ketone number, start an Accountability thread and do it, this forum is all about everyone doing their own thing.

Welcome to the forum @Jaybub. Reddit is not like it used to be. I hope you enjoy these subforums and the friends you will meet here.

(Bob M) #8

I personally don’t think there’s a benefit even of 1.5, but that’s because I rarely get above 1.0 unless I fast multiple days in a row. Newbies can hit those values, no problem, but after almost 6 years, I rarely do.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #9

I was just channeling Phinney, don’t worry about it.

(Bob M) #10

It would be interesting to see what “real” people get over time. I know on Virta, their ketones ended lower after only a year, but I wonder about that. They didn’t start very high. I was way higher when I started. Well, let me rephrase that, I started low carb for a few years before I started taking ketone values, but even then I could get some relatively high ketones while eating. I know Keto_Carnivore (Amber O’Hearn) still gets some high ketones, and she’s been carnivore for a long time. But she also eats much higher fat than I do, and I don’t think she works out much (which I think also affects the values you get).

For someone new to low carb/keto, I think values over 1.5 are easy to achieve (and if you’re one of those people who get a “high” from ketones, maybe that’s good). It’s just for some people – for reasons not entirely clear to me, though protein intake and exercise likely do something – we have a hard time getting higher ketones.

For me, this meant that tracking GKI was useless, as every morning it was bad, then would get better as the day went on. Even Thomas Seyfried says that high GKI is better for endothelium health, but I have a hard time getting there. Similarly, others use GKI as a marker of autophagy, but again I have a hard time believing that if I fast 36 hours and exercise (lift weights to failure and do HIIT) at about the 32 hour point that even though my GKI is still low (work out in morning, so blood sugar always higher, ketones lower), that I’m not getting autophagy.

I mean, if I fast 4.5 days, my ketones start to hit near 2.0, but there are only so many times one can fast that long.

But those are the current “rules” you’ll see everywhere for ketones. It makes me feel like an outsider, being not in the “cult” of those who can get higher ketones.

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #11

This!

I get so frustrated when I see low ketone levels and people tell me not to stress on it. I’m in the sunset of people who are doing keep because of cancer and it’s been a year. I still haven’t found a best way to keep my ketones high. I’m going to focus on keeping glucose low and see what happens with ketones. But I still haven’t found what to eat too keep glucose low enough, as there are so many variables.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #12

After 15 months I am adding in carbs. But three days of meat and vegetables gets me to 1.8.

(Joey) #13

I’m still feeling rather surprised by my blood ketone levels:

As a newbie coming up on 4 weeks (carbs <20g, moderate protein and plenty of animal fat), my ketones quickly settled in a range of between 4-5 (rarely lower, sometimes higher) and GKI wobbles just above/below 1.0 … so, if you’re doing the math, my glucose hangs +/- 80.

I continue to do my daily cardio with occasional free weight lifting of moderate amounts … nothing other than my decades-long routine when I was eating that low fat/high carb “healthy” dribble.

So I’m assuming this is just newbie stuff and that eventually things will chill to a more typical level.

Meanwhile, I’m feeling grand, never felt any keto-flu symptoms, lost 10lbs and almost 3" - which frankly was never really a goal in the first place. I just wanted to feel better … and I can attest that I most certainly do. Onward.

(Jaybub) #14

Great tip. Thanks, I’ll make sure to do it :slight_smile:

#15

Well, we don’t want to make people feel bad because they don’t produce a lot of measurable ketones regardless of the reason. But there’s a lot of benefits to moderate ketone levels (I’ll define that as 1 - 3 mmol), so we don’t want to shame people for “chasing” them either.

There are SO DANG MANY factors that control ketone production. The more I look into it, the more I see that I don’t understand it all. At a basic level, ketogenesis depends on hepatic energy status. By that I don’t necessarily mean liver glycogen, but how the liver handles the creation of glucose and ketones given the available substrates and hormonal soup in our blood. There are multiple regulatory pathways that control the balance of glucose to ketones based around the availability of OAA in the GNG pathway - which requires both fatty and amino acids to function. This balance teeters on enzymes and allosteric factors that would make your head spin. (LINK)

And that doesn’t even take into account the brain, the BBB, and whether or not you feel hypoglycemic at what would otherwise be normal glucose levels, thus triggering more glucose when ketones are low.