What does Fat Adaptation mean to you?

[Corals]

Thank you, Paul.

In your last paragraph you say it isn’t insulin resistance, because during effort a muscle still can use glucose. But during exercise, the taking of glucose by the muscles happens even in people who are insulin resistant anyway. That’s why T2 diabetics see a decrease in blood glucose during a walk after a meal, for instance. Their glucose will lower, even though they’re insulin resistant.

And isn’t it more than just a muscle problem? Glucose can be stored as fat in fat cells. This happens all the time in normal people, so that their glucose is kept below 100 mg/dL. And their cells that need glucose survive. Why would anyone need their glucose above that level?

I can keep my kitchen tidy with the food stored in the fridge and cupboards. It’s available. When I need it, I can open a door and get it.

Or keep the food on the floor, in the sink, on the table. The food is available, spread all over the place. But why would the kitchen need to be messy?

I’d like to see the science showing that all that glucose needs to be circulating in my blood, causing damage, when it could be safely stored in my adipocytes.

If something makes my body think it’s ok to keep high BG (messy kitchen), isn’t this unhealthy by definition?

Normal people have low BG. And they still function. A well regulated body knows where to find glucose When it needs it. Not a moment before.

[ffskier]

If you are well fat adapted, you maximise your use of fatty acids

This is true.

the body makes whatever glucose it needs to fuel the running effort as required.

Only up to a point. At higher intensities, the body needs glucose. Fat cannot provide the rocket fuel needed. Hence, once you have burned through glucose stores, exogenous gels and bars are used. The body can make glucose, but not in enough quantities or promptly. The crossover from fat to sugar burning has been documented many times. It occurs once blood lactate is greater than 2 mmol/L. For those who are fat-adapted, like myself, the crossover happens at higher intensities. However, if these intensities persist or happen on a more frequent basis, my need for exogenous carbs also increases, or my performance suffers.

[Alecmcq]

The body can make glucose, but not in enough quantities or promptly.

Can you pls provide any research that backs this assertion up for people who are fully fat adapted?

[PaulL]

And isn’t it more than just a muscle problem? Glucose can be stored as fat in fat cells. This happens all the time in normal people, so that their glucose is kept below 100 mg/dL. And their cells that need glucose survive. Why would anyone need their glucose above that level?

I was recently reminded that normal glucose used to be under 120 mg/dL/6.7 mmol/L. I wonder whether that might still be true for people on a proper human diet. It’s clearly true that the pharmaceutical companies have a strong incentive to keep lowering the top limit, so long as they have a drug to sell us.

Anyway, adaptative glucose-sparing is not a “problem,” it is how things are supposed to work. There are two issues with storage of fat in adipose tissue. The first is that excess sugar from a high-carb diet gets shunted in to muscle by insulin and into fat cells, converted to triglycerides by the liver and packaged in VLDL, which is why triglycerides are so high on a high-carb diet. On a low-carb diet, insulin rises while we eat, causing adipose tissue to store fat, but then it drops between meals, so that the fat can leave the cells to feed the body. That rhythm is normal; it is the constant storing of fat on a high-carb diet that is abnormal.

My belief is that if we are eating a proper human diet, we can trust our body to know what it is doing. To my mind, it is one of the great faults of Western medicine that it teaches us that our body has no idea what it is doing, so we have to figure everything out and take control.

[PaulL]

Volek’s team has shown that elite athletes who have been fat-adapted for at least two years have glycogen stores indistinguishable from those of elite athletes who eat a high-carbohydrate diet.

It is anecdotal that explosive power takes longer to return than endurance does, but obviously it has returned by the two-year mark (and probably earlier).

[Alecmcq]

Volek’s team has shown that elite athletes who have been fat-adapted for at least two years have glycogen stores indistinguishable from those of elite athletes who eat a high-carbohydrate diet.

Yep, I know, but the claim being made is that the body cannot make enough glucose to fuel what is required for an above lactate threshold (2mmol/L) effort in fat adapted athletes. I have never seen any research that supports this, I would love to see it.

[Shinita]

Volek’s team has shown that elite athletes who have been fat-adapted for at least two years have glycogen stores indistinguishable from those of elite athletes who eat a high-carbohydrate diet.

So both group uses it all up on a high-intensity exercise and afterwards they need fuel coming from somewhere. Eating sugar works but as far as I know, we can’t get the energy (partially glucose) from out fat at the required speed. Hence we need to eat carbs then. Probably less when we are fat adapted.
Where is this limit, I don’t know. Probably not fixed anyway. I don’t say it it like this but I read about this a lot, even ketoers eat carbs in certain situations when needed. Most of us don’t experience this as we don’t do high enough and long enough exercise.
I am very sure a mere marathon (where the speed isn’t great so I don’t talk about people who run it in 2-3 hours) is no reason to eat carbs. Some people may need it and some don’t. I don’t see why a not fat adapted person would need to eat carbs during a marathon either but my SO isn’t at that yet so it’s just a guess, why couldn’t many humans (not all, of course) run for 4 hours without food? Wouldn’t make sense to me. It doesn’t seem extremely much running… Or is it? I know that a half-marathon doesn’t necessarily require any eating even for a non fat-adapted one.

I am looking forward to collect data from Alec and my SO when they run their full marathon without food (or not but they probably will. Alec almost did it already). Alec is carnivore, my SO always was a high-carber… N=1 is precious too, it can shows if something is NOT impossible

[ffskier]

Volek’s team has shown that elite athletes who have been fat-adapted for at least two years have glycogen stores indistinguishable from those of elite athletes who eat a high-carbohydrate diet.

Volek’s team has shown that elite athletes who have been fat-adapted for at least two years have glycogen stores indistinguishable from those of elite athletes who eat a high-carbohydrate diet.

I agree 100%. There will come a point where both the fat-adapted and the high-carb athlete will start to burn less fat and more sugar (crossover). This happens as intensity increases and the duration is longer. The fat-adapted athlete will have a higher fat max than the non-adapted athlete and thus will burn more fat at a higher level than the high-carb athlete will. Fat can provide the majority of your energy requirements at lower intensities. But if the intensity and duration increase to a high level, sugar becomes a priority.

If interested, have a look at the work of Dr. George A. Brooks and Dr. Indigo San Milan

[PaulL]

Tim Noakes has remarked that if his studies comparing high- and low-carb athletes had been long enough for the latter to become fat-adapted, he might have short-circuited several decades’ worth of high-carb advice to athletes. As it was, unfortunately, his studies only lasted a mere two weeks, which showed the high-carb athletes at an advantage.

[ffskier]

which showed the high-carb athletes at an advantage.

He may be right, as I suspect. My thought on the entire issue is that it is better to be fat-adapted than not be fat-adapted. Being metabolically flexible would seem to be best. Rely on fat as much as possible, and when the need arises, ingest the carbs. Only looking at it from a performance aspect and not necessarily from a health perspective.