What does Fat Adaptation mean to you?

[PaulL]

Canned tuna, canned chicken, Spam, those are kind of a given.

I don’t know what the situation is now, because it was more than thirty years ago, but when my mother provisioned her sail across the Atlantic, she found what I considered an astonishing variety of canned meats.

[sugar-addict]

So I have another question about this…

I know the state of ketosis from many years of extended fasting and my experience of it is ketosis = big energy boost.

So, what does the energy curve look like over time, when doing Keto? Initial big energy boost when going into ketosis, then lowered energy because the body needs to fat-adapt, then return to normal energy when fat-adaption is completed?

[0cac544b99285298bde6]

And presumably when the body is fully fat adapted and the liver stops overproduction of ketones, then the urine ketones will be lower?
How long can fat adaptation take ? My ketones have been lower for the last couple of weeks and it has now been approx 10 months that I have been following this WOE

[PaulL]

I can only speak for myself. I started a ketogenic diet in early 2017, my mother died in April, my sister and I bought a house, she moved from Africa, I moved from New York, and we moved Dad from the next town over. My nephew started college, and my niece started high school, . . . you get the idea. By the time I moved in August, I was pretty much fat adapted.

Now, I am not enough of an athlete to have noticed any decline in my athletic performance (though I’d probably win the gold medal, if sitting at the computer were an Olympic sport, lol!), but what I do notice is that my energy leveled off at what I remember as being normal for me, before I contracted the virus in 2006 that left me with a fatigue syndrome. When I joined the forums six years ago, it was a big joke that people were waking at 4:00 a.m. to rearrange their closets, clean out the basement, and vacuum all the rugs. I never had that much energy, and I’m somewhat envious of them. (But I’ll take what I’ve got, because I can do yard work for four or five hours and not have to spend the next two days in bed.)

Many athletes on these forums have noted that their post-adaptation endurance was even greater than it had been before they started keto. Explosive power takes a while longer to return, but it has been shown that by the two-year mark, the glycogen stores of keto-adapted athletes are identical to those of carb-adapted athletes.

However, asking people for their experiences is not going to help you much, since your mileage/kilometrage is guaranteed to vary. Why don’t you post what you are experiencing, instead?

And presumably when the body is fully fat adapted and the liver stops overproduction of ketones, then the urine ketones will be lower?

Presumably, because that’s what a lot of people report, though many others report that their urine strips continue getting just as dark. Your mileage/kilometrage is guaranteed to vary.

How long can fat adaptation take ?

I seems to take between six and eight weeks for most people, but I recall a forum member who appeared to adapt in about two weeks, and we have had several people who found it took them longer than eight weeks.

The point of measuring ketones is that their presence shows without a doubt that insulin has dropped to a sufficiently low level. If it didn’t require a radioactive assay, we might be able to measure insulin directly at home, and then we’d be calling the diet low-insulin instead of ketogenic. Ketones have a number of hormone-like effects on the body, however, so they are not simply valuable as fuels. Likewise, the benefits of having healthy mitochondria in our cells, once glucose, frcutose, and insulin stop damaging them, lies in better regulation of autophagy, cell growth, and cell death, not to mention the elimination of most cancers. (It’s damaged mitochondria that are the cause of cancer; the damage to cellular DNA has been shown to be an aftereffect, not a cause.)

P.S.–The simple test for being in ketosis can be determined from the answers to these two questions:

1. Is your carbohydrate intake under 20 g/day?

2. Are you still breathing in and out?

If the answer to both questions is Yes, you are in ketosis, otherwise not.

[Geezy56]

Fat adaption, to me, means not being tethered to the next meal. I can eat or not eat and I’ll feel fine. That was NOT me on carbs. I am not hungry all the time, either. No more “crashing” because I need some sugar. No more ravenous hunger pangs.

That’s how I see it as well.
It’s amazing how I can see everyone around me eating all the stuff that I used to love to eat and not even care anymore.
It’s all faux food to me now.
In some cases it’s even a little revolting these days.

[Shinita]

It’s all faux food to me now.
In some cases it’s even a little revolting these days.

I have it that strong elsewhere, my house has okay food in my eyes, just some are carby and I usually fail to interpret them as food for me. It’s apparently good for my SO though. Carbs satiate him (if it’s a single meal, not even much fat and protein need to be present, it’s fine if they come in bigger amounts at the next meal). Carbs make me hungry and I get wrong food desires… I need a lot of fatty protein if I get hungry.
It’s so interesting how different we humans are…

I am not less hungry on lower-carb, personally but I always got very very well satiated for long enough on high-carb due to my excessive amount of fat intake and probably right amount of protein and I don’t need serious overeating to get satiated now. And I wrote about the change in my hunger before, that is due to fat adaptation, being able to avoid overeating is due to lack of carbs (and good food choices and a little effort). I even lost fat on low-carb, way before keto, quite easily. But even less carbs are better for me.

[sugar-addict]

However, asking people for their experiences is not going to help you much, since your mileage/kilometrage is guaranteed to vary. Why don’t you post what you are experiencing, instead?

I guess the reason I’m asking is cos I’m only 2 weeks in so far and wondering what to expect.
I’m definitely in ketosis (which is easy for me because I’ve done it countless times before when extended fasting).

When I joined the forums six years ago, it was a big joke that people were waking at 4:00 a.m. to rearrange their closets, clean out the basement, and vacuum all the rugs.

I’ve definitely got this going on… I call it that “slightly crazy” energy that ketosis gives me… It feels a bit like I’ve taken speed or something… Do you remember that old Duracell advertisement with that bunny that just kept going and going and going and going…? Well, that slightly manic Duracell bunny energy is what I’d describe the “keto energy boost” as.

So, I know this feeling from fasting and for the approx 12 years of extended fasting I did before I’d ever heard of the Keto diet or ketosis, this Duracell energy was just this mysterious thing that happened when I did an extended fast. I was on a fasting forum and knew other fasters were experiencing it too, so I figured it was just this super cool feature of fasting.

And I always thought “Well, it’s a shame you can’t have this feeling for a long amount of time - because if you fast, say for more than 6 weeks or so, you’ll starve and die, so since fasting has a natural “time limit” there’s simply no way to access this feeling of being really energised for more than a few weeks.”

But thennnnnn… I learned about Keto in about 2017 and tried it in 2018 for the first time (though that only lasted a few months because I just couldn’t hack eating that much meat all the time So this time I’m doing a more personalised version which I think I can continue indefinitely.)

But what I’m wondering is “How long does this ketosis/ Duracell energy last for?” “Does this engergy boost just mean I’m in ketosis (which I know) or does it mean I’m fat-adapted or does that feel different yet again?” “Is this kind of energy boost sustainable long-term or does it go away after a while?”

So yah… All I have so far is my fasting experience and 14 days of Keto to go by… (I don’t remember how my 2018 Keto attempt went in detail… I know I had that initial energy boost… I don’t remember it going away… All I recall is that after a few months I just gave up cos it was too much meat (and yes, I realise that’s a total oxymoron to all the Carnivores here ) I don’t remember my energy levels dwindeling… I don’t remember feeling a difference between “just ketosis” and “fully fat-adapted” either… But I don’t think I was aware I could be looking out for how that was different either, so I might have just missed it…

Anyway… I look forward to giving an update in 2 months and 4 months time… And I sooooooooooo hope that I’ll be writing something along the lines of “While my Duracell energy didn’t last more than a few weeks, the drop in engergy wasn’t much at all and now that I’m fully fat-adapted, I’ve definitely got way more energy than on a carb diet…”

Crossing fingers and toes and whatever else…!

[Shinita]

after a few months I just gave up cos it was too much meat

But why did you eat too much meat? I did keto with zero meat for years (on/off as I went off a lot but I go off carnivore a lot too, even after I am used to eating much meat, it’s a me thing)… That may be tricky for some but low meat, at least when you are getting enough meat, for a break (I did that on carnivore)? That sounds very doable Variety helps me a lot too. I may be bored of one kind of meat but there are so many others! (I still couldn’t eat only meat but I don’t even need mostly meat.)

We don’t necessarily need very much meat on keto or on carnivore, some may have but not all of us… But it’s very individual what is much meat, of course To me, 1 pound (or rather a tad more) is doable (even needed now) and just right for my high protein with some other protein sources. I shouldn’t go over 600g as that’s way too much protein and fat for me. So it’s not much if you ask me but I know some people get so easily satiated for so long that they have a hard time even eating a modest amount of food…

Our experiences are pretty unique I never had extra energy (and I have too low energy so I wish for more) or fat-loss and I can’t tell apart ketosis from lack of ketosis as I feel exactly the same (I only knew it’s ketosis because I lost water weight and in the beginning satiation was easier or something…? I lost these differences too). Unless I overdo carbs very much as that’s worse and unless I do carnivore or close as that brings a bunch of benefits mere ketosis never did. But barely in and out? I don’t notice anything.
Fat adaptation feels the same as anything else to me except the hunger change.

I am looking forward to hearing about you and your own changes later!

[ctviggen]

My ketones have been lower for the last couple of weeks and it has now been approx 10 months that I have been following this WOE

When I was testing (reminder to self: get some blood ketone strips), I got down to 0.1-0.2 mmol/l in the mornings. Higher at night. Fasting for 4.5 days only drove those above 2 mmol/l.

[0cac544b99285298bde6]

Thanks for your info.

[Alecmcq]

Fat adaptation means to me that I can ignore every piece of nutritional advice that I get about running marathons. Every runner and coach tells you that you must ingest sugar gels throughout long runs and marathons to avoid “hitting the wall”.

Because I am now fully fat adapted, my body is quite happy chewing through fatty acids without an ingested carb in sight.

‍♂
‍♂
‍♂

[PaulL]

And I always thought “Well, it’s a shame you can’t have this feeling for a long amount of time - because if you fast, say for more than 6 weeks or so, you’ll starve and die, so since fasting has a natural “time limit” there’s simply no way to access this feeling of being really energised for more than a few weeks.”

Professor Bikman describes the metabolic state of ketosis as being basically the same as the state of fasting, just without the lack of food.

The energy-boost feeling settles down over time, as one becomes accustomed to it. But endurance just seems to become really good.

[PaulL]

Every runner and coach tells you that you must ingest sugar gels throughout long runs and marathons to avoid “hitting the wall”.

This advice was first promulgated by a couple of Swedish researchers, but Tim Noakes built on their work and really publicised the notion in The Lore of Running. Once he learned better, he had to revise a couple of chapters in that book, lol!

[ffskier]

It really depends on your goals. The best endurance athletes in the world, you could say, are fat-adapted. They can run at a pace where their blood lactate level is still below 2 mmol/L, and yet for others, their blood lactate can be up to 3 times higher at the same level of effort. Above 2 mmol/L is considered a crossover from fat to sugar (Dr. George Brooks). If you want to run at a zone 2 pace, your primary fuel source will be fat, but you will also still burn some sugar. It might be a 90/10 split. It is never 100% fat. Eventually, you will need some sugar, or your performance will suffer.
If interested, have a look at Dr. George Brooks and Dr. Indigo San Milano.

[PaulL]

Jacob Wilson and Ryan Lowery also have some good data about elite performance on a low-carb, ketogenic diet.

[ctviggen]

Every runner and coach tells you that you must ingest sugar gels throughout long runs and marathons to avoid “hitting the wall”.

Same with cycling. I 100% believed this at one time. In fact, if you are a high carb eater, you do/can hit the wall because your body can’t go into fat burning.

Although some who eat low carb still will eat carbs during workouts. But if you’re not looking to set any records, it’s not a big deal.

[Shinita]

Every runner and coach tells you that you must ingest sugar gels throughout long runs

But even some high-carbers disprove that… Not everyone needs such things.
It wouldn’t make sense. Our anchestors run long distances without even water let alone sugar… No way we can’t run without sugar, no one, no matter the speed. Maybe the top runners have it different but many people run marathons over 5 hours and being happy just doing it…

if you are a high carb eater, you do/can hit the wall because your body can’t go into fat burning.

But we obviously can burn both dietary and body fat without being fat adapted, maybe it’s not as good but a high-carber still can cycle for long without eating… Again, it may be not athlete level, it may be even uncommon but such people exist… I live with one. If he doesn’t eat for a while, he gets hungry and more and more miserable (just like me, actually) but he can run and cycle and do physical work just the same.
Maybe it’s some individual thing…

[cvkemp]

I don’t know really what fat adapted means all I know is I do my best hiking and my best resistance training the last couple of hours of my fasting period. I average 19 hours of daily fasting, I hike or ride my exercise cycle then do a 30 minute resistance workout. My goal is simply to stay healthy not necessarily to be muscular.

[ffskier]

Most healthy people burn a combination of fat and sugar during a workout. It is never 100% fat. If fat-adapted, you will burn more fat than sugar at lower intensities. As intensities increase, the opposite is also true, even with fat adaptation.
One of the reasons Dr. Jason Fung prescribes a keto and fasting protocol for some of his patients is because they are so metabolically broken that even just walking, their blood lactate level is above 2. Meaning they only really burn sugar and virtually no fat, even at very low intensities. The extended-day fast helps the body burn fat. Or at least, this is what he has found with his patients. He readily admits that there are very few scientific studies that support his views, but he has determined that the benefit is far greater than the risk of somebody not eating for a day or three.

[Shinita]

I do my best hiking and my best resistance training the last couple of hours of my fasting period.

Same. I have most energy when well fasted (and it’s logical and feels good to eat after my workout) so I act accordingly I had no problem with well-fasted exercise on high-carb either but I got hungry earlier. I ate before I could check if I would get low energy too…