What are the mechanisms behind fat GAIN when in ketosis?

(August) #1

I hear many different things about whether or not it is possible to gain fat while eating LCHF and in ketosis. Some people say that they “shed” the excess fat through their poop and urine, while others say that if you eat more calories than your body needs then “of course the excess is stored as fat”.

One of the things that sold me on keto in the first place was my understanding of how insulin works, and how critically important it is for storing body fat. Out of all the food groups carbohydrates are the ones who trigger insulin the most, then proteins, and then fat the least.

I guess my questions comes in two parts:

  1. What happens with your excess calories when eating LCHF and in ketosis?
  2. If excess is stored as fat, is insulin involved? If it is: how is it involved?

Thanks! :slight_smile:

(Bunny) #2

What happens if you eat 5,800 calories daily on an LCHF diet? <== click (very complex answer)

“…When glucose levels drop, insulin production falls, too. The shortage of insulin in the blood is the signal that the liver needs to liquidate its assets, sending its glucose stores[1] back into the blood to keep the body well fed between meals and overnight. …” …More

“…The conversion of carbohydrates or protein (gluconeogenesis) into fat is 10 times less efficient[2] than simply storing fat in a fat cell, but the body can do it. If you have 100 extra calories? …” …More

Footnotes:

[1] “…Carbohydrate can be stored as glycogen mainly in skeletal muscles or the liver; fat is mainly stored as triacylglycerol in adipose tissue. With filled glycogen stores, glucose can be the substrate for de novo lipid synthesis and stored in adipocytes, muscles, or the liver and cause insulin resistance[3]. …” …More

[2] …than straight consumption of refined sugar or high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), the liver will convert it (HFCS) directly into visceral fat around the liver, other organs and mid-torso area of the body without spiking insulin?

[3] Hepatic (liver) Insulin Resistance (VERY BAD) vs. Physiologic (skeletal muscle tissue) Insulin Resistance or ‘Adaptive Glucose Sparing’ (GOOD)?

See Also:

  1. Physiologic Insulin Resistance & ‘Adaptive Glucose Sparing’
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #3

Insulin at a certain level is required to cause fatty acids to be stored in the adipose tissue. As the article by Dr. Eenfeldt that Bunny posted indicates, the possible reasons for not gaining weight on a high-calorie ketogenic diet are that the fat is metabolized, that it is excreted, or that it is not absorbed. My hypothesis would be that some degree of all three is involved.

One complicating factor is that protein intake above a certain level will cause insulin secretion above the minimal rate; of course, that would cause the diet to be no longer ketogenic. I would expect a fair amount of weight gain in that circumstance.

Since the body is highly capable of reducing or increasing the metabolic rate, I wouldn’t be surprised if that turned out to be the primary mechanism of dealing with a high-caloric load on a ketogenic diet, nor would it surprise me if the found body mechanisms for engaging the other two methods. Also, as Dr. Eenfeldt points out, there is a point past which one loses appetite and cann no longer force oneself to eat.

(August) #4

Thanks, you guys, for those explainations. It’s still a bit fuzzy to me how exactly insulin is involved when the body is dealing with excess calories in the form of fat on a ketogenic diet and while the body is in ketosis. By the sound of it it seems that research on this topic is not definitive/complete. Am I right in that statement?

We simply don’t know the exact mechanisms in how the human body deals with excess calories in the form of fat when it is in ketosis. It CAN be excreted, the body can increase its metabolism, and it can be stored as fat.

Does fat, when eaten in large amounts, trigger insulin? Is insulin always present in the blood no matter what (unless diabetes 1), and this minimum amount of insulin is enough to store the excess fatty calories as fat when you eat too much?

I tried to understand the articles that were linked above, but I had some difficulties really get a grasp on it since it seemed like to me that the some of it was related to glucose and insulin which is not what I am asking.

(German Ketonian) #5

Ben Bikman has talked about the mechanism behind weight gain in a low-insulin state. In essence, the secret is the increased growth hormone due to the “mimicked” fasted state. It offsets the need for insulin to some extent. However, usually a LCHF diet won’t cause people to gain weight, according to Bikman, because there are other beneficial factors involved with it, such as an increased uncoupling protein (or “grying” and “browning” of white fat tissue) and fat excretion involved with ketone production (stool, urine, breath), among others.

(Omar) #6

Why we are assuming that on ketogenic diet when there is weight gain that the dietary fat is what being stored?

there is no pure fat diet unless someone diets on liquid butter.

My hypothesis is that the 20% or 30% or whatever the protein and carbs represent of the total intake is what maybe causing the weight gain.

just a thought

(Benj) #7

Why not both (protein/carbs + dietary fat) ?

(Omar) #8

I think the article posted by bunny explains it very well.

As I said in my previous post there is no 100% fat diet.

and therefore there is no 0 insulin situation.

Theoretically the amount of insulin will be secreted is proportional to the level of BG. this means only little fat will be stored.

which means if ones exceeds his Basel calories the excess nutrition will be converted to fat. but because the fat is high and therefore insulin is low , the only escape is higher metabolism which is not difficult to observe by any one who is on hi fat feeling higher hands and feet temperature and higher body temperature in general.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #9

The discussion seems to be sliding off the topic, perhaps unwittingly. The original question was about fat gain, not weight gain. I know that we often talk as though they are the same thing, but fat and weight are distinct. Fat is not the only component of the body that has weight.

We all know that on a ketogenic diet the body can spontaneously put on lean tissue and increase bone density, whether we exercise or not. I was going to mention that in my earlier post, but then realized that the question was specifically about fat. But if we are going to switch to discussing weight gain in general, we need to keep bone and muscle in mind, since they are dense and can increase weight without increasing measurements.

(Omar) #10

good point

thanks @PaulL

(German Ketonian) #11

Just to follow up on that: fat is stored when insulin is relatively high. Yet, it’s probably continuous. Imagine a graph sort of like two criss-crossing elements “insulin” and “fat access”

image

The issue is, however, if a LCHF diet gets you in a lower rate, you’re still storing excess calories (albeit from fat) in the form of glycogen and body fat. Unless you fast, insulin will always get to a certain level. And even if you fast, be mindful of the basal insulin level. This factor is greatly amplified if you’re obese to begin with, as ButterBob has outlined in his great video:

So bottom, line you can’t get rid of insulin and you shouldn’t. The capacity to store fat is lessened in a LCHF diet, but not eliminated, simply because insulin is low but not eliminated (thank god!).

(If you let my go on a tagent relating a similar mechanism: the same goes for glucose. We need it so much that our bodies manufacture it themselves to survive. So as with insulin, I say this for gluconeogenesis: thanks to god, nature, or whomever you thank for this kind of stuff.)