Vitriol in other forums towards 2ketodudes, Dr. Fung for not being evidence-based?

(Carolyn aka stokies) #1

I am astounded by the shortsightedness and narrow-minded views some of these other so-called support groups are so ugly towards anyone who expressed support or opinions contrary to their own.

How the actual F*CK can someone say Fung is not science-based??? Or bash others who have changed their messaging to match up with shifting science, but refuse to acknowledge that the person actually owns their errors?

I finally had to remove myself when they put Carl and Jimmy Moore in a category of ‘failed butter chuggers’… yet none of them would entertain the facts of each’s personal journeys…

I haven’t been so enraged or disgusted by an online ‘community’ in a long time.

Makes me love here even more - so pardon the rant and just know you are ALL valued here to lil ol’ me :heart_decoration:

(Susan) #2

I got upset today mentioning to a friend on an online game I play that I am doing Keto (after he mentioned he needed to lose about 50 pounds). He was like Keto is dangerous; it will affect your liver and pancreas and you will end up really ill. Grrrrr so madenning. I told him to watch 2KetoDudes Podcasts, Dr. Jason Fung, and Dr. Ken Berry, and really listen, then talk to me! =)

I really value the people here too, it is so nice to talk to people that “get it”!


I’m in a couple of other forums, but they are also low carb/keto/fasting oriented. I can’t stand being any any other forums. On facebook KickAssKetoBitchs Ketodudes fans and a couple of others with recipes are the only ones I follow related to diet.

My scientific proof is my body, all I need these days.


Have we created an echo chamber. A crucible of confirmation bias, and conformation bias? Maybe that is some of the glue that holds together a tribe and humans’ tribal tendencies.

(Carl Keller) #5

In his book The Obesity Code, JF’s 31 pages of end notes give reference to over 100 studies. He even writes briefly about giving too much credence to animal studies using an analogy that went something like this:

Two lions were discussing the latest scientific finding that antelope lived the longest on the savannah and it was believed to be due to their grass based diet. The lions gave up meat and started eating grass. They died a short time later.

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #6

People might be jerks in real life but especially on the internet and especially when they gang up to do it. When I hear theories about how the internet and technology is making us less social I chuckle to myself. It’s not because we all have our heads in a screen, necessarily. It’s because, given the chance to drop the face to face manners it sheds light on just now nasty people can be. It certainly makes me want to avoid other humans as much as possible.

Sounds like it’s time to move on, Carolyn. For your cortisol’s sake! :grin:


If it were only the disagreement with ideas, then that might be it. But the constant insults, strawman arguments, and fat-shaming some groups engage in is beyond that and into bullying behavior. That’s why we like to keep the forums free of personal attacks and more science and experience based, where pros and cons can be discussed without fear of reprisal.


Let your friend know that they are spot on here. Keto makes your liver less fatty, and less insulin resistant while your pancreas can rest and secrete less insulin!

(Susan) #9

Which are amazing, good things! So why on earth did he say it will ruin both?? Gee…

(hottie turned hag) #10

This is prob the most free of attacks/nastiness/personal crap forum I’ve ever been on. I find that p interesting. Even places like Linux Mint forum where the subject of the entire forum is an OS so one would think no way to get pissy, folks will get all high horse-ish to newbies who ask -yes, sometimes dumb but they are NEW- questions.

(Kirk Wolak) #11

I agree 100% and even Dr. Phinney and VirtaHealth sometimes take jabs at Dr. Fung.

I am an IDMProgram (remote) client… I was so scared of fasting because of “Society”…
Like Atkins and Keto fears… They were UNFOUNDED.

Dr. Phinney quotes studies done on 30 day fasts, and even dry fasting to prove it is bad. But ignores that for the first 3-5 days of fasting, YOUR METABOLISM GOES UP. It’s on the VERY CHARTS he references and in the VERY STUDIES he chides as proof.


I’ve reached out to Bill Pulte asking if he would FUND some concept of “Biggest Winners” (where we take overweight Biggest Loser types, and we assign them to VARIOUS Keto/Carnivore Doctors and coaches, and they compete).

I would love to see:
Team Phinney
Team Fung
Team Ken Berry
Team Berg

The doctors and coaches would volunteer their time/expertise for the coverage.
The game plan would be to use ENTERTAINMENT to EDUCATE.

People could hear the differences between these approaches (some are subtle).

And they could see the actual Experience.
DEXA Scans before, during and after.
Rated on: Efficacy, Ease, and Results…

The goal would be to show people how they might “fit” into different programs.
(Dr. Berg is way too high in vegetables for me. His DIM product caused my daughter to stop having her period, she is a near carnivore like myself, it turns out).

And to show, at the end, NOT just the weight loss. But the health gains.

Finally, every Episode would have a blast to the past, covering someone who is maintaining and what they do differently lifestyle wise. (Existing Clients of the teams could be used for these in the first few seasons)…

(It's all about the bacon, baby) #12

Sounds as though it would be fun to watch (seriously), especially if you had Thomas Delauer and Ted Naiman strut across the stage shirtless periodically (un-seriously, but fun).

(Kirk Wolak) #13

No, you have the gist perfectly…
I threw out the big names…

but there could be the smaller names PD,JT, TD, TN doing a similar competition.
Hoping to move up to the top tier.
Also, some of these people could be called in for “Tough Cases”, etc.

Just the Dr. Fung contrast to the Biggest Loser show (Really the name the COACHES deserve, BTW)… “Don’t Exercise, maybe walk laps in a pool”… Get them Keto, Then Fasting, and keep showing their blood numbers, liver/kidney tests…

Since Healthcare costs are BEING DRIVEN by diet/lifestyle choices… This would have the biggest impact on healthcare costs. And start allowing insurance companies to give discounts to those provable following a Keto/LC/Healthy diet…

(It's all about the bacon, baby) #14

If you are really serious about this, approach Swiss Re and Crédit Suisse for funding. As a life insurance company (the latter) and a reinsurance company (the former), they have a vested interest in making sure the population is as healthy as possible. The life insurance model depends on increasing lifespan, and the currently declining U.S. life expectancy has them very concerned.

(hottie turned hag) #15

plus Shawn Baker would make up the Triad of Brain and Brawn

(CharleyD) #16

Should the Ketogenic Forums propose it on Shark Tank? :sunglasses:

(Carolyn aka stokies) #17

Considering they passed on DDP Yoga, I wouldn’t have much hope for Shark Tank lol…


I’d like to interject for a moment…

(April Harkness) #19

Same here. When people say I am going to die… I just say “look at my abs” That’s my proof. Sticking to it!

(Susan) #20

This all reminds me of the years before most of our time, when all the movies had all the stars smoking, and many doctors were smoking, and when they actually had advertisements promoting smoking, and thought it was good for everyone…