I recently started attending online ED group sessions after being in ketosis for the better part of 2.5 years. The reason I decided to join this group is because, although I entirely am thrilled with the health benefits of keto, I feel chained by this WOE. Also, I have been strugglng with night binge eating for about a year. This is not night time snacking but, in particular, getting up numerous times in the night and raiding the refrigerator. I began reading some information about EDs because I felt I needed to find a better way to become unchained and to stop the vicious cycle of night eating.
Iâm very unsure how to reconcile the difference between using ketosis to manage chronic inflammation due to arthritis and not being a glutton or wanting the feeling of gluttony to how I could even begin to believe that following the keto WOE is, in any way, associated with an ED.
The group has several times referenced a âsuppressed bodyâ, insinuating that if you just ate whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted, your body would not be suppressed. Forr me, that WOE is absolutely not the way I would chose to be as that is how I ate for 50 years and was absolutely miserable.
Does modern medicine just not understand keto and treat it as an ED? Should i accept that this is just the way I choose to manage my body and not feel like Iâm am being a slave to my choices?
Has anyone else felt like I feel and, if so, what decisions have you made in this regard?
Unsuppressed body....?
Iâm not sure what the term âEDâ stands for, but I can say that a well-formulated ketogenic diet is intended to be eaten to satiety. The reason this works (for most people, at least), is that with insulin lowered (from not eating carbohydrate), it is no longer interfering with the hunger and satiety hormones, so the appetite becomes self-regulating. Yes, we continue to eat quite a bit of food at the beginning, but most peopleâs appetite soon drops to a more reasonable level, low enough to allow both dietary and stored fat to be metabolised.
Is is possible that your nighttime hunger is the result of not eating enough food during the day? This is not a calorie-restricted way of eating.
At least one psychiatrist, Dr. Georga Ede, uses a ketogenic diet to treat her patients with anorexia and bulimia, because it helps them restore a more normal relationship with food and eating.
Interesting, for sure. I guess for you not only confusing but a bit frightening. I tend to agree with Paul that maybe youâre not eating enough during the day. Before keto I felt hunger and satiety all the time. I got hungry, I ate. I got âfull/satisfiedâ, I stopped. With keto, not so much. The last time I actually felt hungry was day two of the four-day water fast I used to start keto. That was Jan 03, 2017. I have not felt hunger nor satiety since, other than very slight and fleeting hunger sometimes in the morning before breakfast. Thatâs very sight and very brief. I use other signals to determine how much and in what proportions to eat.
Thatâs a new one for me! I very much doubt many on this forum are orthorexic about keto. I care about eating a healthy and nutritious diet - why bother otherwise? I want to live as long and healthy as I can. But I do not and never have had a ârelationshipâ with food. I view eating much as a driver on the highway running out of gas views an upcoming service station. I want to get in, refuel and get on the road again. The service station is not my destination.
Iâm no expert but this sounds like absolute cope bs.
Some people can just eat and not even think about it with the result being a perfectly healthy body comp.
Some people need to track calories and eat low carb to achieve the BF range they wish.
Some people find it easier to restrict some foods groups or even macros (carbs) all together or they canât control themselves.
Some fall between these scenarios.
One thing they all have in common omit the first one is they all have to put in effort, itâs not âeasyâ the western world wouldnât be the absolute obese mess it is if it was.
I get the impression this group believes there is a âshort cutâ, âeasyâ or âeffortlessâ way to accomplish what most people have to fight for or at the very least be very mindful of going about. âIntuitive eatingâ and having optimal body composition and athletic performance (at least on that side of the spectrum) is an oxymoron.
Most good things do not come easy and thatâs ok, thatâs what makes them good.
What are your current stats, activity level, and the big one⌠what are you eating daily? Are you tracking your food intake or just eating things at random when/if youâre hungry?
Iâve fought binge eating for years, and what/when I eat absolutely has a huge effect on whether the beast is triggered or not!
Eating whatever you want, whenever you want might work if all of the food options were straight from the ground or animal. Unfortunately that isnât the case and highly processed and caloric options outweigh them. Add to that the myriad of other issues modern society has around food consumption.
As someone with an ED history I get annoyed with the âif you justâŚâ and âAll you have to do isâŚâ advice for recovery or healthy living. Not only is every person uniquely affected but it implies that the person is complicating and creating their own issue.
Iâm a night eater when Iâm going through stress. Right now Iâm keeping tums and a big glass of water next to the bed and gobbling them up two times a night. At least I can minimize the damage this way. Best wishes.
You donât say what kinds of food and how much you actually eat. It could be like what @PaulL said, that you are actually not eating enough during the day and so hunger kicks in big time. Also, Iâm a firm believer that women, in particular, because we are smaller than men and donât need as many calories, have to be extra careful in making sure our foods are extra nutrient dense. If you are only eating 1200 calories a day and 60-70% of that is fat, than that only leaves approximately 400-500 calories to give your body all the vitamins and minerals it needs. The binging could be a symptom of your body lacking vitamins and minerals.
Youâve been keto for 2.5 years, so Iâm guessing you know all about the increased need for salt. If keeping food quantity too low is not an issue, it could be that you are not getting enough salt, so your body wants you to eat more to increase your sodium levels. Low sodium causes me all kinds of trouble. One of my low sodium symptoms includes waking up at 3:00 am feeling anxious and hungry. Once I upped my sodium intake, the 3 am anxiety and hunger went away. I take my last sodium dose just before I go to bed.
When I first became keto, I do think I went a little crazy thinking about food, tracking macros, testing blood sugar and ketones. Maybe even a little obsessive, but I enjoyed it. I enjoyed learning as much as possible about keto, how the body responds to different foods, the causes of obesity, the cast of characters and policies that lead to the obesity epidemic. Well⌠like âtheyâ say, âThereâs nothing worse than a convert.â Lol.
Iâve been keto/carnivore for over four years, now. My obsession has mellowed (probably around the 2.5 - 3 year mark), but my way of eating has not, and most likely never will. I have found a way of eating that helps me feel healthier and maintain a healthy weight that isnât how everyone else eats. That doesnât mean I have an eating disorder. All my neighbors like to drink wine and beer. I donât. I donât think that means I have some kind of drinking disorder. I shouldnât have to drink wine at a party just because my neighbors do. I shouldnât have to eat carbs just because society thinks I should or because âeveryone else is doing it.â
I guess you have to decide if you think you have an unhealthy obsession with keto and if it is having negative effects on your life and mental well-being. If you are healthier and happier than ever on keto, how can that be wrong?
I would try looking into food quality, quantity, and sodium.
I donât mean this as a criticism, but it truly depends on what one considers âeasy.â My experience is that I ate keto, did no exercise, and lost 80 lbs./36 kg without any effort on my part (I am a couch potato of long standing). But it wasnât magic, it was eating in a way that was better for my body than the diet recommended by the government. For me, the hard part is that I still get carb cravings that are extremely difficult to fight. Dealing with them is not what I, personally, would call âeasy,â but I suspect that in your post, you had a different kind of hard work in mind.
What made a ketogenic diet possible for me was the promise that there was no need to count calories, and for me, that promise was certainly true. I was always a miserable failure counting calories, and most of my trouble was psychological. I found that Dr. Phinneyâs advice to âeat to satietyâ was much more feasible for me than counting calories. So, not having to track my food intake definitely made keto âeasyâ for me, in a way that eating less and moving more is not.
For me, the âcalories in, calories outâ approach to dieting is harsh and painful in a way that I simply cannot deal with, so I am grateful to have found a way of eating that better suits my psychology and personality. But while certain aspects of this way of eating are easier for me than CICO, certain other aspects are a challenge, and require work.
As I said at the start of this post, I donât mean any of this as a criticism, just as an attempt to show that âeasyâ and "hardâ mean different things to different people. And again, keto is not magic; itâs just a way of eating that is better for my body, so my body responded better to it, than to the diet I was eating before.
I liked this 
Just because we are farther from the norm, it doesnât mean we do it wrong⌠Looking at the health (and other things related to food) of the average person, I donât think we should follow their dietary choices anyway. But we arenât all the same either.
Shelly, I am with the others who ask for infos. No idea what your problem is but itâs quite possible you donât get enough of something important. I never wake up at night but I have night eating times as well. But the right food in the right amount at the right time makes it practically impossible, I donât even think about food as I donât need it, I am fine.
It may be not this simple for you but maybe it is or partially it is. How we eat during the day may control a lot, it changes my attitude and behaviour regarding food, I become a different person!
If one eats whatever whenever, it may be a catastrophy⌠Or may be right. Or one just stays fat forever. itâs NOT that simple for everyone. I am sure most of us came with bad dietary habits due to our circumstances. But we wanted something better and changed. It took effort and time. Not just eating as much as we want, whatever we fancy, stuck in our old, bad habits. It doesnât mean forceful, restrictive eating. I basically always eat whatever I fancy as I canât and donât want to resist temptation BUT I train myself, educate myself, experiment⌠My knowledge has an effect on my desires. I am a hedonist so I obviously want the food that is healthy and good for my body, I want to feel good. It has to be very tasty too but good food is often tasty, lucky! And I may be okay with various items even if I desire something, not just food in general - itâs best to choose the healthiest one though itâs not always clear what that is but thatâs what education and experimentation is for.
Keto is definitely not an ED, not orthorexia⌠How silly!!! Many people donât even do a particularly healthy keto for them (we often need some to figure out what that is for us, others probably donât care, they just want their sodas and sweets and treats)! Smart people try that and thatâs the best. Some gets a bit obsessed but itâs normal and itâs not necessarily bad. It depends on the level and duration of the obsession.
WHY would be bad or ED if I donât want to force-feed myself with carbs? I donât get it. I have carbier days (and they are almost always worse than my extremelty low-carb ones, even less tasty. not hedonistic) but most of the time I just want my normal carnivore(-ish) food. I want just that. So I eat that. Itâs nutritious and my body loves it best. How an Earth would that be ED? I would think force-feeding myself to reach a way worse (mentally and physically, emotionally too) diet, that would be ED and some quite serious mental problem beyond eating⌠I love myself more than that. I love freedom too. I want to eat whatever I want to eat⌠If thatâs ED for someone, so be it, itâs not my problem.
Thatâs interesting. I follow Amber OâHearn on Twitter, and she says the opposite: too much salt causes people to get up at night, mainly to go to the bathroom.
On the other hand, Iâve seen others advocating salt as something that will reduce the times you get up at night.
Like you, though, I find I have to take in a lot of salt. Otherwise, I get cramps.
As for getting up at night, man that is a tough one. I sleep great some nights (always get up at least once); other nights, poorly. And Iâll be darned if I can find out why, for most nights.
For me, it seems to be related to how much carbohydrate Iâve eaten during the day. Low enough, and my bladder capacity is phenomenal; too much, even if Iâm still in ketosis, and Iâm back to getting up during the night.
I used to get up two or three times during the night, ever since childhood. It wasnât until a few months after going keto that I started sleeping through the night.
Iâve been wondering about this salt issue. I urinate during the night if I DONâT have enough salt. My blood pressure will drop below 100/60 and I get light-headed if I DONâT have enough salt.
Iâve seen the term âelectrolyte wasting.â I think thatâs what happens to me on low carb. With electrolyte wasting goes water. If I keep the electrolytes up, I keep the water in. Iâve been wondering if this could be because I am not over weight. Iâm at a nice, healthy weight range. I look slender and somewhat toned without looking scrawny, particularly for my age. Iâm guessing Iâm not insulin resistant.
Since insulin causes our kidneys to retain sodium, maybe as a slender person, I actually need to increase my insulin levels with my meals? 
I donât know. These are just thoughts that popped into my head as Iâm typing this post.
Could be true. Amber OâHearn also states that higher salt intake can cause higher insulin (though I donât know upon what sheâs basing this). So, by taking in salt, you could be increasing insulin to a level thatâs more comfortable for you.
Now, Iâm reluctant to think that salt intake causes higher insulin levels, but Iâve never researched that. And, since there are no home insulin tests yet, itâs impossible for me to test.
Iâd venture to say that if it works to keep your salt intake up, thatâs better and less damaging than increasing your insulin level.
I havenât even read your post yet, I was actually afraid someone would think I was addressing THIS group the ketogenic forum.
I was talking about the OPâs ED group. 
Thatâs what I would consider âeffortâ and falls into one of the categories I listed
I feel chained by this WOE.
I am so sorry to hear you feel this way and I hope it is temporary. Some of us feel freedom rather than restriction. This is probably worth exploring in some depth to find out why, and practically working through the specific causes of feeling so restricted. Do you enjoy your food? Do you look forward to it? Is there enough joy and variety in your eating? Personally I felt a bit âchainedâ at < 20g, but really quite liberated to discover I still had good results at < 60g. (With the usual caveats that this is not typical for many.)
The group has several times referenced a âsuppressed bodyâ, insinuating that if you just ate whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted, your body would not be suppressed.
This sounds to me like the particular school of Intuiting Eating which encourages you to stock your pantry full to bursting of all the foods that âcallâ to you and simply eat so much of them, that they begin to lose their appeal. This did not work for me, and sent me down a very dark path of bingeing and weight gain. Ironically, itâs only through drastically reducing carbs and increasing protein and fat, and in fact removing my binge foods entirely, that I have been able to feel properly satisfied by food, and eat according to my natural appetite. But if I was to describe this approach to a lot of health professionals, it would sound like restriction and a return to ED. So Iâm careful about who I discuss this with, and when Iâm feeling shaky in this WOE, try to protect myself from views that espouse only Intuitive Eating or overly militant HAES, anti-diet, eat-whatever-you-want sentiment. On some level (politically and philosophically perhaps) I agree with those views; but my experience has proven that way of thinking is not actually helpful for me in achieving mental and physical health.
Is the ED group helping at all? Can you take what helps, and leave the rest?
For me, the most important step in stopping bingeing, was to ensure I was eating enough calories every single day and never going hungry. I tracked and ate over maintenance-level calories for about 3-4 months (on a basic SAD diet) before I felt ready to try keto again.
Re. âModern medicineâ - there are lots of doctors and dietitians now who support and promote a low-carb diet. Would it help if you sought out a GP who is keto-sympathetic and talked this through with them? There are lists elsewhere in the forum.
Good luck and I hope you keep posting.
IDK how effective this is to people in general, itâs completely useless for someone like me.
- I donât eat myself sick with anything. If something loses to be nice, I stop.
- No matter how bored am I with something (there are circumstances and I overdid things here and there), if itâs a thing I like, I will want it in no time again. Very rarely itâs longer but never permanent, far from it.
Sometimes eating a ton of something works for a while but itâs always with items I donât need and donât normally want. My âstaple desiresâ replenish very quickly
And I am a hedonist and food is one of my most important source of joys. I had zillion favs. Now itâs less but still so many. I donât want to be in close proximity with a ton of most of those items. Especially if there is variety. That wouldnât be pretty, I have experiences.
My biggest favs (satiating carnivore food, I feel lucky) are usually safe even this way but I think always, consciously or subconsciously am a tad careful with even those. I canât fully turn it off and I probably need it if I want to lose fat. Or if I just want to avoid overeating while not doing everything near perfectly all the time (thatâs tiring).
I eat whatever I want, actually, I just need serious restriction. Keto is WAY too loose for me (and sometimes too restrictive but thatâs very rare nowadays as I lost interest in most carby food and I definitely donât need them so a rare taste should be enough). Itâs not a force, itâs what I prefer. I donât understand those âeat/do whatever you wantâ people. Do they never had a situation when they had to train themselves to want the right thing? (Or do without wanting but that sounds sad to a hedonist I do my best to change things including myself so I wonât want something that isnât right or good for me. Knowing something isnât right is already effective in many cases but there are tempting subtly harmful things and then I need training, other options, time and effortâŚ)
Thanks for your time in replying. Can you tell me, in your experience, how you think the tums and water regimen helps with night eating? Thank you.