Too Low of Body Fat?

#21

My original post is at the top of this thread (Too Low of Body Fat?). I am not trying to lose weight. I am trying to maintain. My body fat is 7.5% which is probably too low for a 58-year old man. I am trying to stop losing.

The body is capable of turning either fat OR protein into glucose. It does so when it needs to otherwise we’d have no blood sugar at all when we are ketogenic. It is a demand driven process. In spite of eating 175 g or more of protein I am in ketosis as verified by both urine and blood ketone strips.

#22

Ah, I see. I miss-read your original post. You want to maintain. I’ve never read anything that says your body can turn fat into glucose. If you want to stop losing weight and/or body fat, and are not having an issue staying in ketosis with 165 grams of protein, then maybe up your calorie intake? Add in more fat and more protein? Or maybe lower fat a bit while upping protein? Have you tried adjusting your macros in this way to see if it will help you maintain? If you are trying to up body fat (if you think your current bf is too low) then definitely lower fat and up protein.

(Tovan Nhsh) #23

I’ve also heard that fat as well as protein can be converted to glucose:

" It is true that most amino acids can be converted into glucose. (Leucine and lysine cannot. More on this in a bit.) But you know what else can be converted into glucose? Glycerol. The glycerol molecule from triglycerides (fats). Triglycerides—the form that dietary fats take—consist of three fatty acids joined to a glycerol molecule (hence their name, tri-glyceride). When triglycerides are broken apart (such as needs to happen in order to liberate the fatty acids so they can be burned/oxidized), you’re left with individual fatty acids and the glycerol. The fatty acids get burned or used for some other purpose, and two glycerols can be combined to make one glucose molecule. Yes, you read that correctly: the glycerol backbones from two triglycerides can make glucose. This isn’t something that happens to a huge extent, but it can happen. Funny how you never hear about this possibility when people are warning you not to eat more than 20 grams of protein in a meal, but see nothing wrong with encouraging you to glug down a cup of coffee loaded with 400 calories of butter and coconut oil.

So if you’re worried about GNG from “too much protein,” then you should also be worried about it from too much fat. (But the truth is, you shouldn’t worry about GNG from either of these things.) "

From Gluconeogenesis

#24

If turning fats into glucose was actually something that was common on the keto diet, then the entire theory behind keto wouldn’t work. The body would just turn fats into glucose and spike insulin in the same way it does with carbohydrates. Even this quote from the article says “This isn’t something that happens to a huge extent…” I can imagine in a starvation state where there was reason for the body to be desperate, it might be inclined to turn fats into glucose, but aside from that, this just doesn’t happen or else why would the body burn fat and produce ketones? The body tends to prefer glucose for fuel anyway.

(Tovan Nhsh) #25

Wasn’t saying it was/was not common, only that it was possible. Also, I don’t think (according to the article & what I’ve read at least) that “The body would just turn fats into glucose and spike insulin in the same way it does with carbohydrates”, less supply driven & more demand. I.E. when you’re body requires glucose it will make it & this is just one of the ways it can.

(Adrian Russell) #26

I just came across this older thread but it is very timely for me. You’ve done a great job. I have a similar but very different problem at the same time. I’ve always been thin but was diagnosed with T2D six years ago, at the age of 50. Couldn’t gain weight no matter what I did, and certainly heard my share of “wish that was my problem or you can have some of mine”. Going keto a year and a half ago put my diabetes in remission but I started to get even leaner, to the same level as you, around 7%. I’m very active lifting weights and therefore am concerned as you are that I don’t have a lot of excess energy for training and it appeared to me I was getting leaner still. My gym offered me a 3D full body scan called Styku and I went for my session yesterday. My results came back at 2.9% total body fat, borderline dangerous in the long term.
Similar to you, I don’t want to harm my blood glucose numbers by eating carbs but I have to do something as those numbers are far too low. Can anyone tell me if it is as simple as upping my fat and calorie intake? That would be difficult without raising my protein macros even higher than what I eat now. I can eat more MCT and coconut oil I suppose but that seems like somewhat empty or not nutritionally dense calories but then again that may be the answer. On top of all this my sugar numbers are climbing back into the 6’s, where is the glucose coming from? I keep reading that gluconeogenesis isn’t a real concern in most cases, am I an anomaly and that’s what’s happening? Any suggestions anyone?

(Wendy) #27

If I we’re in your shoes I think I would increase my fatty meat. I don’t personally worry too much about eating too much protein. I don’t go crazy but I don’t count my protein macros. I expect you will use the protein for growth and hopefully a bit of fat. Just my uneducated opinion.

(Todd Allen) #28

I’d be surprised if the Styku system has good accuracy at extreme leanness. It’s a relatively new technology based on 3d imaging and it uses the cheap consumer grade XBOX Kinect imaging device so it isn’t super high resolution. No system for evaluating body composition is perfect, but for now I’d place more confidence in the results of a dexa scan or hydrostatic measurements.

(Adrian Russell) #29

I suppose you’re right, I’ll try upping my calories by 1000 mostly in fat and see what happens. I don’t know if I can eat that much but I’ll try my best.

(Adrian Russell) #30

I suspected as much regarding it’s accuracy, especially when at the low end of the scale like me. The trainer said he has found it fairly accurate so far but hasn’t encountered a body fat percentage anywhere near mine. I’m not going to bother trying another method as I know I’m very low whatever the exact percentage, so it doesn’t matter if I’m at 2.9% or 5.9% for example, I’m too lean regardless. Time to eat until I burst I suppose.

(Todd Allen) #31

5.9% is very lean but might be compatible with good health. If you are really at 2.9% I’d expect your doctor(s) would be making a fuss about it.

Have you had your fasting insulin measured or your insulin response tested? I’d be curious to know if you have insulin resistance, diminished insulin production or both. If you have very impaired insulin production you might not be able to eat to gain weight while keeping blood sugar reasonable without injecting insulin.

(Adrian Russell) #32

No, I haven’t had my fasting insulin tested, just the regular fasting glucose tests and A1C. On both tests I’m doing well so far, below the diabetic cutoff so although I’m insulin resistant I don’t believe it’s a bad case and should improve over time with keto. I do plan on getting it tested in the near future though as I’ve been curious lately. Thanks for the suggestion, it reinforces a concern I already had.

(Todd Allen) #33

Have you or your doctors considered the possibility of LADA?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_autoimmune_diabetes_of_adults

LADA is frequently misdiagnosed as type 2 diabetes but is really a form of type 1 diabetes, sometimes called type 1.5 if insulin production is impaired but not destroyed. Your thinness suggests this ought to be considered.

#34

While you’re at it - finding novel ways to increase your fat intake is recommended if you’re lifting and lean - you may well have an energy input need closer to 4-5Kcal a day, etc. Some endurance keto athletes eat enormous amounts of fat. For more on that, see the film Run On Fat.

Ways to do that could be such as adding 2 tblsp fat in a morning fatty coffee/tea, plenty of fatty foods like avocado, cheese, cream, nuts - aiming to increase anti-inflammatory fats beyond your regular fatty meats. Rather than going high protein, keep protein moderate.

Another interesting angle is to look at potential parasites, apparently they can rob the body of nutrients and certain ones can have emaciating/catabolic effects.

(Adrian Russell) #35

All the novel ways you mentioned unfortunately are already being deployed but that is exactly my plan anyway. Eat more of all of the above. I just finished a chunk of old cheddar as my after workout replenishment. Fatty, high calories and fairly compact, with all the food I’m trying to eat now I’m getting full fast but all the things you mentioned do help. Never thought of the parasite angle but worth thinking about, I’m seeing my doctor soon so I’ll mention it to him and see what he thinks regarding getting whatever tests would be necessary.
Thanks

#36

P.S. - also look at your enzymes for coping with all the fat and making sure your nutrient absorption isn’t blocked by dairy congestion/sensitivity, etc. Maybe consider supplementing with Ginger capsules (enzyme precursor) or Bromelain and Papain (isolated enzymes, very powerful, can lead to a digestive dependency though). And since you have a physician, there’s prob a bunch of interesting tests like for LADA, and some genetic stuff. Dr. Phinney talks about how around 10% of folks do better on the HCLF way of eating, due to some extenuating genetics.