Todays Experiment with Vitamin C (And my CGM)

science
(Kirk Wolak) #1

Okay All, I wanted to share this. I got some Stomach Virus on Wednesday Night.
Muscle soreness, eventually explosive diarrhea. Along the way, I dosed up on Vitamin C.
And watched my CGM shoot up about 3.3 mmol/L (or from 4.7 to 8.0). That was 6G of C.
In capsule form. Each Gram of C is 1 G of carbs if you are interested. But 6G of crabs MIGHT take me out of ketosis… It never jacks my glucose up that high.

Now, the CGM MFG admits this is a known Problem. Since the CGM measures Interstitial Subcutaneous Fluid (and because I believe our bodies store things there to use them later), as the amount in the blood is pretty tightly controlled until you do an IV of Vitamin C…

Anyways, I went from 85 to 145 on regular measurements. or a 60pt swing.
60/18 = 3.3 mmol/L (European number, and A1C style)

Okay, the experiment today (I am 90% recovered. Still a bit explosive).
So, excess Vitamin C won’t change anything, LOL… (It is a natural laxative at extreme doses orally)… I am going to take 10G of Vitamin C, and check my CGM every 15 minutes.

I am going to compare this to my Keto-Mojo Glucose Readings at the same time. Keto does not typically recognize Vitamin C as Glucose, but the CGM (Libre) does.

I will use the difference in the numbers between the baseline of both, and changes of both, to calculate the increased amount of Vitamin C in mmol/L of my interstitual Fluid.

the reading Spiked about just past the 60 minute mark, but since I was not being scientific it could be as long as 75 minutes.

I will respond to this with 2 sets of numbers.

  1. What happens with the Initial Dose (FWIW 30 minutes after my max reading, I was still in the 130 range on the CGM but much lower in reality)…
  2. I will then do a SECOND DOSE of 10G of C orally. At this point, I am looking to see if I get a similar bump, or if it is constrained by something. I assume it will probably not rise to the 190 levels levels, but be capped.

I will report this back to the group. I am a huge fan of Vitamin C, it has served me well.
The goal here is to see if the CGM can be used as a hack for Vitamin C status. Especially in cases where you want to drastically increase Vitamin C levels.

The 3rd piece I will study is the impact on of IV Vitamin C on the CGM. Getting Vitamin C via IV allows up to 200 times the Blood Plasma Concentration of Vitamin C. But does THAT vitamin C leak into the Interstitial fluid? And will it be constrained. (I imagine here, that the level of saturation of the Interstitial will be the same as the Oral, but I have no idea. This would require a theory as to how your body removes a HUGE EXCESS of Vitamin C from Serum).

As a GOUT sufferer… I am ACUTELY aware that I may be risking a GOUT Attack. Gout feels like a Broken Toe Socket for me. SEVERLY painful. But I know how to treat it.

A Gout attack early on, may prevent the second or third stage of testing. (Vitamin C, like Uric Acid and Ketones all appear to compete for emptying… But I could be wrong).

This is what is great about being LIVING Science Experiments. (Well, when WE CHOOSE the experimentation freely, LOL)

In summary: Imagine being able to use a CGM type device while dealing with a chronic illness that responds well to Vitamin C… To accurately DOSE the Vitamin C to keep you as saturated as possible. And more so, to be able to understand the corresponding value of IV Vitamin C based on it’s ability to drastically increase the Serum levels, and potentially keep them elevated without bleeding into the ISF (Interstitial Fluid)… WOW

(Kirk Wolak) #3

Okay,
The results are in, and a little confusing. Maybe because I did an hour in the sauna at the gym first…

1hr after taking 10G of Vitamin C. My CGM barely noticed. I gave it another 30 minutes. And I took the second 10Gs… Thinking the Gym probably depleted me…

Well about 1:30 minutes after the first does, the CGM started moving. But I had already taken the second dose. Keep in mind, that I saw a huge move from 6G of Vitamin C. (Do NOT take these levels of doses… Vitamin C is a natural laxative)…

so, 2:37PM I was (87 CGM, 115 Glucose on Mojo, always in this order)
3:08 (86, 118)
3:38 (96, 93) [Interesting role reversal]
4:08 (97, 100) [strange]
4:38 (97, 121) [my Mojo is registering this, I am not eating!] Take my second dose.
5:08 (106, ?) [I stopped measuring with my Mojo b/c the numbers were not going anywhere on CGM]
5:39 (112, ?) wow… After the other day… It’s like the first 10G did not matter. Somethings wrong…
6:00 (145,?) okay… I am just marking time now. I feel really sleepy!
6:52 (154,?) Actually went to lay down. Not feeling bad. Just ZERO energy
8:17 (128,?) I feel like I welched on the whole thing and goofed something up. Considering I had over 4x the dose of Vitamin C, to only get about 8-9 points higher on the CGM is wild.
10:26 (107,?) Okay, pretty much falling back to normal…

After “wasting” 5 finger pricks on the Mojo and seeing strange results. I figure I will have to pick this up another day.

certainly, I don’t know how to measure ISF for Vitamin C levels, to get an accurate comparison.
And I have no idea the calculus that would be involved in calibrating the readings.

I still find it amazing that dosing on Vitamin C can goof the CGM that badly.
I know inflammation can (inverted. As I lose inflammation, I see my Glucose SUPPOSEDLY sky rocket, and vice versa. Which is a problem with measuring a substance in solution, while the volume of solution might be changing, and probably why other CGMs have issues with analgesics)

(Robin) #4

I hope you get some feedback soon. I have nothing to contribute… not my wheelhouse. But interested to see how it goes for you!

(Bob M) #5

Do you know what your Lp(a) is? I suspect low.

(Kirk Wolak) #6

The only tests I find show <10 (no number), LOL.
Curious, Why?

(Bob M) #7

I have a very high Lp(a), as in probably 150 on the scale you’re being given. So, 15 times what you have.

For me, vitamin C makes me feel bad. Really bad. Consequently, I don’t take it.

While I think this is probably erroneous as to the connection between Lp(a) and atherosclerosis, this discusses Lp(a) and vitamin c:

https://www.kahnlongevitycenter.com/blog/vitamin-c-and-lipoproteina-the-evidence-for-benefit

One theory is that Lp(a) is basically a “surrogate” for vitamin C. My theory is that people who can take vitamin C to the extent you can, and get little to no ill effects, have low Lp(a).

Meanwhile, I feel bad if I take 1 gram of vitamin C. You’re taking 10 times that amount.

(Kirk Wolak) #8

Bob, Wow, thank you for sharing. yeah, I took 20g that day. within a couple of hours.
LOL.

Honestly, I’ve been a big Pauling fan, since High dose Vitamin C really helped me through the college years. My GF started taking it, she was ridiculed by everyone in her sorority until they noticed she STOPPED getting sick (The colds and Flus that spread through that Dormer!)

I’ve easily taken 30G in a single day. Because of dosing up, and constantly re-dosing. I go until I find my Bowel Tolerance Limit… And then finally cut back until I am better, or I am tolerating the dose I get.

you probably wont laugh, but a young lady in college showed me her medical book, where it said taking more than the RDA of Vitamin C can cause Ulcers! (I had already learned that it was H. Pylori, but that was still in Fringe Articles). I had to explain the concept of pH to her, and how Ludacris that statement was. But she would not be swayed… it was in Print.

At that point, I started my REALLY HEALTHY distrust for the Medical System…
We had just learned the “Rule of Accuracy in Publication… The more frequent the publication,
the less trustworthy the information!”… So, those monthly newsletters were consider garbage, and that text book was the Gold Standard.

While true for so many things… Once an industry gets a little too big and profitable…
Well… You’ve seen 2020/2021… (Hint it hasn’t gotten better)

(Todd Allen) #9

Vitamin C is made from glucose by removing 4 of the 12 hydrogens. It is similar enough that many glucose meters fail to distinguish them and report all C as if it was additional glucose. I think this is what you are seeing with your CGM although with a significant delay as it takes a while for the C you take to reach the interstitial fluid that is read by the CGM.

edit:

Ok, I reread your initial post and see that you realized you were measuring the vitamin C via the CGM and not actually spiking your blood glucose.

A couple years ago I discovered I had severe lead poisoning and started using high dose oral vitamin C as part of the treatment. I used my finger prick blood glucose meters to help dial in my dosing strategy and found that taking 2 grams every 3 hours kept me within 90% as saturated as I could achieve by taking a gram every hour which was the limit for me which pushed me into the uncomfortable laxative zone after a few days.

(Bob M) #10

@brownfat Can giving blood help with that too?

@CaptainKirk I used to read Dr. Malcolm Kendrick’s blog, before it and its comments went too heavily into covid. The posters there were interesting, and a lot of them loved vitamin C. Because of them, I have tried taking vitamin C many times since then, and each time, I feel bad.

I plan to test more though, maybe forking out the cash for “liposomal” vitamin C, which is supposed to have fewer side effects.

But if vitamin C works for you-- as it seemed to do with a lot of the posters over at the blog – then it likely won’t hurt and most likely does help.

(Todd Allen) #11

Perhaps for acute recent lead exposure where much of the total body burden might reside in ones blood. Even then one blood donation might knock the blood level down by 5% or so at best. But in my case it appears I had been slowly accumulating lead in my bones and fat over a lifetime and my blood lead level shot up after going keto and losing a lot of weight. My blood lead level was nearly 10 times the threshhold of poisoning and the blood portion was only a tiny percent of my total body burden so I had to find a more efficient way to clear it than bleeding.

(Kirk Wolak) #12

I would have considered IV Vitamin C, plus EDTA Chelation therapy.

Due to food reactions, I have used activated charcoal capsules to reduce the impact.
But found a downside… I binds to electrolytes and induces cramps! It took 2yrs the first time for me to get past the cramps. Now I only get them under extreme conditions… I will avoid getting those as much as possible.

the human body is amazing. Lead is really bad. If it were mercury… You would be long gone. Crazy how lethal mercury is.

I am assuming you have either recovered, or you are working the process…

(Todd Allen) #13

It was brutal but I’m doing great now. It took about 6 months to bring my blood lead level down by 2/3rds at which point the acute symptoms of poisoning mostly abated. At 1 year I hit 10 mcg/dl the threshhold of poisoning in adults but when I resumed dieting for a few months my level shot back up to 20. But for the past year my blood lead level has been pretty steady at about 5 mcg/dl which is considered the threshhold of poisoning in children but supposedly ok for adults. Never did any IVs, they are typically only prescribed for identified recent acute exposures. I used oral DMSA dosed by the Cutler protocol along with C, NAC, glycine, B1 as benfotiamine and a few other OTC supplements. I will continue treating until my blood level hits zero which I expect may take another 5 years or so but dosing is already tapered to about 15% of peak and will continue falling as my lead level drops. Also I have been able to resume fat loss for the past 6 months without a rise in blood lead level although I’m doing it slow now about 1.5 lbs per month with only about 10 to 15 lbs to go to hit my goal of 10% body fat which I hope to see in less than a year having started out in excess of 40% bf a little over 6 years ago.

(Kirk Wolak) #14

Thanks for sharing.
Wow… And Great job.
That fat was probably protecting you! (They say we often store toxins in fat to get them out of the system).

#15

Cutler protocol doesn’t work and chelators have been shown to redistribute heavy metals throught-out the body, essentially not eliminating them.

The best way to remove heavy metals is by increasing our own Metallothionein proteins with high quality Vitamin A and D3 supplements.

Astaxanthin supplement and/or carotenoid rich foods have been shown to ameliorate heavy metals.

(Kirk Wolak) #16

Joyfulness, the goal of a chelator is to BIND to the toxin/heavy metal.
Elimination is should be supported. But the binding is the critical part.

Are you suggesting the Chelation Solutions are not binding/deactivating these things?
Or is there just some study you are referencing that shows “well, here is this bound up stuff, deposited in a lymph node… Therefore it is not removing it… or it is found in the colon”

Honestly, your statement makes it sound like it is a FACT, and that the binding is temporary.
It binds to it, moves it into another part of the body, and leaves it there, unbinding and going on.

Finally, a blanket statement like Cutler doesn’t work, to someone who claims he followed this process and has the bloodwork showing it did… SMACKS of the “Cholesterol Is Bad, Fat is Bad, and Keto cannot be maintained” type dogma many people “believe” and can cite some BS to support it, but has no bearing on reality for most of us here…

Beliefs are tricky… I’ve updated mine a lot in the last 10yrs…

#17

@CaptainKirk

CaNa2EDTA has been found to increase lead concentrations in the central nervous system and cause encephalopathy.11 After a single dose of CaNa2EDTA, urinary lead levels increase, blood levels decrease, and brain levels increase significantly due to redistribution of lead from soft tissues into the brain.
https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/lead-toxicity-and-chelation-therapy

Chelators bind heavy metals and then the heart pumps the binded metals to other parts of the body. It isn’t a controlled system.

Did you start eating carotenoid rich vegetables during your detox?

(Todd Allen) #18

It worked wonderfully for me. My wife who did everything I did but the DMSA chelation as the DMSA gave her an awful rash also had success although her lead level has only dropped to 1/3 while mine has dropped to 1/10th of what it was before I started the protocol.

(Todd Allen) #19

No, I ate a lot of veggies prior to discovering the lead poisoning. One of the worst symptoms of lead poisoning for me was severe constipation. Cutting nearly all fiber from my diet helped me minimize that problem. I get vitamin A from eating an ounce of beef liver most days.

Note the Cutler protocol is for DMSA chelation not CaNa2EDTA. And the protocol very specifically addresses redistribution by using small frequent steady doses to maintain a fairly steady blood level of the chelator, in my case I settled on 50 mg every 3 hours for 4 consecutive days every other week. I’m currently dosing 25 mg every 4 hours for 3 consecutive days once a month. I used alarms on my watch and phone to guarantee accurate timing throughout each day and waking for the doses at night.

#20

That is so interesting. I have been taking Liposomal Vitamin C for a few years now and feel like it prevents the colds I tend to get (although had one recently and I know where I was exposed and my other three family members did not get it there). No effects at all other than certain brightly colored water in the bathroom. However, I cannot tolerate taking Selenium in pill form, have tried many brands (if anyone has recommendations will be happy to try again) and I also cannot tolerate zinc at the beginning of a cold. It seems to extend the cold and make it more uncomfortable rather than less. I do eat Brazil nuts in limited amounts for the Selenium and no problems.

For various reasons I have started taking Apple Cider Vinegar capsules, found a brand I really like, whenever I feel like my big toe is hurting and for various other issues. I have never been diagnosed with gout but kidney stones and gout are in my family, one on each side