To Cycle or not to Cycle - Mercola's advice

(Bob M) #16

Not to mention that even if what they say is true, is it bad? That is, if you get “higher” blood sugar due to eating higher protein, is that bad?

I can hypothesize that it’s good, at least in people who are exercising. And LMHRs who exercise tend to have higher blood glucose and lower ketones, which fits with this hypothesis.

I also wonder if Amber O’Hearn’s recommendations don’t go too far to too much fat and not enough protein for those who are exercising a lot? Somehow, you have to replace glycogen in your muscles, and even Zach Bitter, an ultra-miler who stays primarily keto, says he can eat keto if he has enough time between exercise sessions. But if he starts exercising twice a day, or lowers the time between sessions, he has to eat some carbs.

And I wouldn’t doubt at all that this will vary between people, even those on the same exact workout schedules. And also on how long they’ve been keto. And then throw in different exercises (is it harder to recover from lifting weights or jogging? Does having a higher muscle mass affect this?), and it’s a mess. Difficult to interpret.

Even harder for someone like me, who has issues eating too much fat. I’ve gained weight three times on keto: (1) eating high fat because of Keto Clarity; (2) after shoulder surgery, where sleep was terrible; (3) The Croissant Diet, where I ate a TON of butter and cacao butter. Certain fats and I don’t get along.

I am getting half a pig early next year. I plan to try a week or maybe a few with eating high pork fat and much lower protein. That is, if this pork fat is different from normal store-bought pork fat, which I detest (too mushy and smells bad). It should be, but we’ll see.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #17

And that, right there, is the question.

(Nick) #18

I don’t really want to cycle too regularly if I decide to go down that route. I’m generally quite happy eating fat and meat protein.

The times I would like to come off personally are when I travel as it’s so much harder (and for me at leas) stressful to try and eat the diet in restaurants, particularly if I don’t speak language. Plus who wants to have for example, Thai food without rice :smiley:

So would the general consensus be, it’s not particularly harmful for your body to cycle in and out, say every couple of weeks or monthly?

(Bob M) #19

I don’t think it’s bad. I will have rice noodles at times, when ordering from an Asian restaurant. (I avoid wheat, so look for rice noodles.) White rice isn’t bad, either. There’s a Mexican place we go to that has a platter with a ton of meat, served on white rice. The amount of white rice is small, and I eat it with no issues (though I’d love to be able to wear a CGM all the time).

The issue really is if you’re the type that eats rice or other carbs and then ends in a spiral of carb-infested waters. Like an alcoholic who can’t drink one drink, there are those (many, many of those, most likely) who can’t have carbs or possibly sweet things. If that’s you, then it’s best to not partake. If that’s not you, and you can jump back on keto at any time, then some rice or other things aren’t bad.

I have some rice noodles, some ice cream, some chocolate, even pizza (by far my worst glucose when I had my CGM) etc. at times throughout the year. Try to keep it a low number, but don’t freak out about it.

(Edith) #20

Well, in my non-expert opinion, I would say that as long as you are the kind of person who doesn’t go off the rails after eating a spoonful of rice, you should be fine. One or two days off keto is certainly not going to wreck your health/adaptation gains. If you are a carb addict who after one bite cannot stop eating the carby item, then maybe cycling wouldn’t work for you. You do have to be careful with the slippery slope. It’s easy to turn a day into a week into a month.

(Nick) #21

I’m a bit weird, I barley notice transition between keto and glucose.

And was never really a sweet tooth person, with the exception of dark chocolate. But that I would normally have in moderation.

I find now, as with previous Keto experiences, I become super sensitive to sweet stuff. As treat snack for me, is a bowl of nuts that I’ve soaked and slow dried in oven with salt. And one square of dark chocolate cut into tiny bits. And I find that more than enough taste / sweetness wise.

I went to a sushi restaurant on Sunday, but I had asparagus, broccoli, cheese and chicken with salad. I would have loved some sushi but resisted. I might next time :wink:

Christmas break and eating slightly more carbs in ketosis
(Bob M) #22

There are some tricks you can use, too. Eating carby things last supposedly helps with blood sugar (never tested this when I had my CGM). Drinking apple cider vinegar, or probably any vinegar, with water can help, beforehand. Even having a salad with oil and vinegar can help, beforehand…

#23

from @PaulL—and that, right there, is the question! you mentioned above.

and I can answer no it is not, show me the actual science for all to make that true LOL don’t exist :slight_smile: :slight_smile: especially for one OFF the ol’ higher carb crap intake so? Massive great point one has to always say but does anyone hear and ‘get it’ lol, most won’t. So agree in your real science to show us the way yet it ain’t ever been established ever to narrow it to that point for any of us on this planet :slight_smile:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #24

Well, it depends. From the justifications that are used, I suspect the idea originated with people who miss their carbs and who want an excuse to eat them.

Are you a carb addict? If so, adding carbohydrate back to your diet might be like an alcoholic taking a drink, and then all bets would be off.

But if you are not a carb addict, then it shouldn’t hurt you too much.

#25

It’s individual, again. I probably went off keto once per week on average for years, it was fine except if I go off, I easily go too far. The original post says about eating 2-3 times as much carbs… I am not that type. I had some way bigger multiplier in my life and I didn’t try to do it or planned anything like that, it just… Happened.

That’s another important thing to consider. Not everyone can raise their carbs just somewhat. I actually can, it doesn’t always happen when I try but it’s pretty doable and even normal for me these days, carnivore changed me and the food there is the best so not much temptation to stray much and often.

It may or may not be harmful to go off keto regularly. It’s impossible to say. Individual factors, what is what we eat when off (my body handles starch WAY better than sugar - and certain subpar processed items just ruin my day even in small amounts)… And there is a big difference between a carby meal and multiple similarly carby days. At least all my own experiences showed that, surely it’s not the case with everyone as many people can go off keto and staying there. If I go off, the more wildly I do it, the quicker I run back to carnivore :slight_smile: (But while the mind-altering carbs are in effect, I very easily eat more and more and more and more. I am evolved so I have some tiny control over it, it helps that I prefer non-carby food too but suddenly eating 100 times as much carbs as the previous day? Not a challenge, I don’t even need to try… It happens here and there anyway.)
And anyway, I can imagine less and less WHAT on Earth could I eat if not eggs, meat and my little dairy… Oh I have ideas, cute for a single course of a meal, in extreme cases it may become a whole meal but for the next meal I want my usual food. And my food is good! Nutritious and enough! I give my body what it wants, I can’t imagine why it would need something carby but if it will, it will tell me as I already wrote at some point.
But we evolved to handle lack of all carby items if needed. We do it pretty well, usually. We can get all our vital glucose from other things, we don’t need to eat carbs. And we don’t miss out on other nutrients… It would be so weird if some complicated stuff in us would still require carbs some people don’t even eat ever and still refuse to stop functioning correctly…

(Megan) #26

For those who haven’t watched the video I linked, don’t assume moving out of ketosis every day or so involves eating carbs. A bolus of protein accompanied with fat does the trick nicely. It’s an interesting video, still interested in ppls’ thoughts.

(Bob M) #27

I don’t think that’s true. I’ve eaten hundreds of grams of protein per meal, and I was still producing ketones.

But it’s a video. I have zero time to watch videos. Put it on a podcast, and I have a chance to hear it. Ask me to watch a video, and it’s not happening.

#28

As do I, and that’s not going to change! This, protein, mTOR and IGF-1 fear nonsense started with that brainchild Rhonda Patrick and it spread like wildfire. I’ll take my muscle mass, strong bones, better metabolic rate and all the health benefits that go along with having all that, she can fall 2ft and break a hip as she’s wasting away in her 50’s.

I’ve also heard her go from claiming meat causes cancer and then rolling it back on other things. Think she’s gone full Berg and just now says whatever people want her to.

To your original post though, I do a Cyclic/Targeted keto, and doing so has been a huge improvement performance wise in the gym and my labs vs doing 4yrs standard keto prior.

(Bob M) #29

Also, I think if you’re lifting, carbs have somewhere to go. I’ve been trying to test to see if I could stay in “ketosis” (for me, any ketones at all) after lifting then eating carbs. The first few tests went OK, as my ketones actually went up after eating carbs. But I got derailed by covid. Thought I might be one of these people that haven’t gotten it. And, I’d have to do this test multiple times, maybe taking ketones multiple times each test, as I’ve learned these testers are inaccurate.

(Edith) #30

That happened to me. I was very disappointed with myself when I got sick.:laughing:

(Bob M) #31

Did you figure out how you got it?

I assume I got it because last Thusday we went on a steam train to the North Pole, where we were in an individual boxcar with a bunch of other people and elves coming down the isles, and we were singing. My daughter might have had it, although she didn’t test positive, but she’s young. She sat across from me. My other daughter didn’t get it, but she’s had it. My wife didn’t get it (yet), but my youngest sat across from me and also behind me in the car to the train. My youngest was sick that Thursday and said she felt bad, but didn’t tell anyone until after the train ride because she really wanted to go.

(Robin) #32

Elves! It’s always the elves!!!

#33

My SO and me both got some cold like thing (I am unable to tell apart these things, cold, flu, we have another word in Hungarian…) several months ago, we never will know if it was Covid or not… Doesn’t really matter, it hurt my pride that I can’t stay healthy :cry: I was slightly upset when I caught some tiny cold years ago, only 15 years after the previous one. I planned not to get any ever… But yeah, I understand, viruses and bacteria everywhere, even my body isn’t perfect… It’s great enough that I never get seriously ill and my not serious health problems are rarely noticeable. My body just works. My energy is too low but we can’t have everything and I am working on it. Or at least try.

In the future I may try using more carbs after my workouts (I need to do them well-fasted) but at this point I better stay as low as I comfortably can (it’s not always that low in December, the slope is more slippery in this month)… And then I do my longer carnivore trials. Those will train me and one day I will make experiments…

(Edith) #34

I believe I caught it playing with my granddaughter and some other children at a playground. I unfortunately gave it to a coworker and my son. My husband returned home from a business trip about three days into my illness. He avoided it. My youngest who still lives at home had it last year and she was fine, too.

I had been exposed several times before and hadn’t caught it. I was feeling pretty smug. I also thought I was one of those people who already had some super immunity. :tired_face:

(Alec) #35

This is exactly what I was thinking… I would be very interested if there is any science behind this idea that blood sugar can increase over the long term because your pancreas gets lazy… it just doesn’t sound plausible to me. Your pancreas is working all day every day to balance blood sugar. Why would it stop working just because it is being used less than before?

Does Mercola provide any evidence, or is he in eminence mode?

Is this right? I thought insulin’s main function was to move the blood sugars into the cells, not preventing the liver from creating glucose??

I had a Mercola phase a long while ago, but something made me stop listening to him… can’t remember what.