To Cycle or not to Cycle - Mercola's advice

(Nick) #1

I know this topic has come up before, most of the websites I have found when searching web suggest it’s best to stay in Ketosis long term taking or taking occasional breaks.

I’ve had Dr. Mercola’s ‘Fat for Fuel, ketogenic cook book’ on my shelf for ages. I took it out to actually send some aspects for a friend who wants to know more about, I’ve barely looked at it for myself.

Reading the introduction he says as follows on page 4, which I’m interested in exploring more:

CYCLICAL NUTRITIONAL KETOSIS CAN REVERSE INSULIN AND LEPTIN RESISTANCE

"Insulin and leptin resistance develop as a result of consuming too many net carbohydrates (total carbs minus fiber) and/or too much protein. Since processed foods, grains, and meat are the staples of the American diet and the primary sources of increased insulin and leptin, eating less of these foods is crucial to healing your insulin and leptin resistance. It leads to losing weight and radically improving your health.

By eating a healthy high-fat, low-carbohydrate, and adequate-protein diet, you eventually enter into a condition called nutritional ketosis, in which your body burns fat as its primary fuel rather than glucose. More and more studies are confirming the concept that nutritional ketosis can be a fundamental, effective strategy to address a long list of health problems.

In fact, emerging scientific evidence suggests a high-fat, low-net-carb, and adequate-protein diet (in other words, a diet that keeps you in cyclical nutritional ketosis) is ideal for most people. This is the diet that I outline in great detail in my book Fat for Fuel, and it’s what I recommend for most people who would like to optimize their health.

It’s important to note that I’m not advocating long-term, uninterrupted nutritional ketosis, which can actually be counterproductive: if insulin levels get too low, it can paradoxically drive up your blood sugar. Why does this happen? Insulin’s main function is to suppress the manufacture of glucose by the liver (hepatic gluconeogenesis). So if your insulin levels remain low for a long period of time, your liver won’t get the message to stop making glucose, and this will drive up your blood sugar levels. The way to avoid this situation is to cycle in and out of nutritional ketosis, fasting one day a week and feasting one or two days a week, eating double or triple your typical amount of net carbs. This approach helps you regain your metabolic flexibility, meaning your ability to burn glucose and to burn fat. Most people have lost the ability to burn fat altogether. Attaining and maintaining nutritional ketosis for several months will help reignite your ability to burn fat for fuel. From there, you will move in and out of it for long-term health.

Beyond resolving insulin and leptin resistance, there are a number of other important health benefits of nutritional ketosis. Perhaps the longest-known and most-researched is the ketogenic diet’s use as a treatment for seizures, especially in cases that are resistant to drugs".

I’m currently into month 4 of pure ketosis.

I was planning to take a break over xmas for a few days to have a traditional meal with my family.

But I’m not contemplating cycling as the above advice.

Wondered what peoples thoughts were on this?

Arguments for / against?

Cheers,

Nick

(Megan) #2

Hi Nick,

I recently watched this and found it somewhat interesting. The title is click bait-ish though.

(9) Keto is Dangerous if You Do It Wrong with Professor Bart Kay - YouTube

I’m interested in ppls’ thoughts.

(Michael) #3

Yes, Not a fan of his attitude, but Bart Kay has it right in terms of insulin signaling coming from protein and fat (the way humans evolved when hunting). I am glad he calls out Cywes since imho, his suggestions are downright dangerous. However, I can see carbs might be more beneficial than protein and fat when talking about those rare things that are determined not by an insulin spike, but more directly by an insulin to glucagon ratio, for example with glutathione perhaps.

(Megan) #4

LOL /nod. He actually wasn’t an obnoxious git in this interview/discussion, which allowed me to listen to the whole thing. I will re-listen to it soon. I eat a lot of protein and can’t quite remember what he said about that causing potential problems.

#5

I can’t argue scientifically here.
It would be super weird if humans couldn’t handle long term ketosis and I am pretty sure there are quite many people who don’t ruin things just by doing keto for long.
But we are different, of course. I personally (usually) minimize my carbs as much as I comfortably can (except allowing some because I can without a problem, way, way below my ketosis carb limit). It’s more complicated, actually as 20g carbs on carnivore isn’t the same as 20g on vegetarian keto or spending 15g on sugar but let’s not overcomplicate things. My body tells me it prefers as little carbs as possible. I am not willing to eat like that but I can go pretty low. I can do 3-5g days just fine, I just need to go higher for variety. But going close to my ketosis carb limit, that causes various problems so nope, I stay low if I can.
But I personally do on/off keto since I reached fat adaptation. I believe my body would be happy with keto all the time but I never tried that so can’t be sure. But just to add carbs because someone thinks that is better? No, it must come from some part of me. But it’s just my attitude, of course.

I am quite healthy, by the way. Not perfect but who is that? The average person is VERY sickly. I don’t even have a doctor as I don’t need one. It may play a big role in my attitude. And my body is very communicative and smart too.

If I was among the ones who gets SICK if they add a tiny plant, well, I wouldn’t go off carnivore. But it’s quite possible that off days do good to some others (well I need them myself but it’s not physical)… I am sure the picture isn’t so simple, it’s about humans, after all so it can’t be ideal to go off keto regularly for everyone.

I don’t watch long videos about eating ever but of course every woe is dangerous if we do it wrong… And some people can’t do it right as keto is not for them but it’s another matter.

(Edith) #6

This is something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, but in relation to my electrolyte troubles.

As far as I know, I an not insulin resistant and not diabetic. When I started keto five years ago, I may have been on that path, but I will never know for sure. Keeping my electrolytes balanced has been an ongoing battle for most of those five years until just recently when I upped my carbs to 50-75 grams a day.

My theory is this:
High levels of insulin cause our kidneys to hold onto sodium, which keeps the other electrolytes in balance. Low insulin causes our kidneys to release the sodium. I think that because I don’t have insulin resistance/type 2 diabetes, that eating 0-20 grams of carbs a day may be keeping my insulin levels too low and I therefore cannot hold on to the electrolytes. By upping my carbs to about 50 grams, my insulin levels are such that I can now hang on to my electrolytes. I kept having heart palpitations with very low carb levels, even with all the salt supplementation I was doing. With my 50 grams of carbs, the heart palpitations are greatly improved now.

So, not quite keto cycling, but just more carbs in general.

(Nick) #7

How did you work out your electrolytes were out of balance out of interest?

(Nick) #8

@MeganNZ
LOL /nod. He actually wasn’t an obnoxious git in this interview/discussion, which allowed me to listen to the whole thing. I will re-listen to it soon. I eat a lot of protein and can’t quite remember what he said about that causing potential problems.

This is what Mercola says of Protein.

How a Low-Carb, High-Fat, and Adequate-Protein Diet Fosters Health

"Eating healthy fat is also beneficial to your mitochondria because it contributes to the building blocks of your cellular membranes. If your cell membranes are impaired, you will invariably have compromised health. So dietary fat serves two purposes: it is a fuel, and it’s also a foundational structural component of your biology.

Beyond eating more high-quality fat and fewer net carbs, you also should moderate how much protein you consume. Granted, protein is an essential building block of your body and you need some, but if you consistently eat more than your body requires to run and repair itself, the excess protein will stimulate an ancient metabolic signaling pathway called mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin), which can orchestrate insulin, leptin, and other crucial hormones. mTOR is responsible for triggering either growth or repair, depending on whether it is stimulated or inhibited. Because cancer is essentially growth gone wild, having an upregulated mTOR pathway can increase your risk of cancer and other degenerative diseases.*

So the ideal ratio of macronutrients for a ketogenic diet is high fat, low net carb, and adequate protein. This breakdown of nutrients is very different from the typical American diet and a big reason why I am so excited to partner with Pete Evans to provide you with delicious recipes that are designed to help you achieve the proper balance of macronutrients.

The key to success on a high-fat diet is to eat high-quality, healthy fats, not the fats most commonly found in the American diet, such as hydrogenated fats and refined vegetable oils, which are present in so many processed foods, salad dressings, fast foods, and restaurant meals."

I do eat quite a lot of protein, in the form of meat. But I weight train 3-4 times a week. And do a lot of abdominal work outs. I crave fatty meat and get most of my protein that way. Plus cheese and other fatty dairy products which are often high in protein. And eggs of course.

(Michael) #9

I think you could simply eat a very large protein and fat meal, but carbs can make it easier to briefly get a sufficient insulin spike. Actually, since I have measured my own ketones fall to zero, I know you can :grinning:. Whether someone enjoys eating a large volume might push them to carb increase though.

(Edith) #10

My blood pressure was too low (90s/50s: I would get dizzy when I stood up when that low), muscle cramps, and heart palpitations. All of these would improve when I upped my salt. If I slacked on the supplementation, they would come back pretty quickly.

(Edith) #11

Yeah, you’ll have to go back through my carnivore postings from two years ago to see what happened to me on carnivore. It did not work for me, but I have said on multiple occasions that it could have been because I didn’t eat enough. I couldn’t stand organs (except raw liver :woman_shrugging:) and I do think I needed more vitamin C. I developed a severe histamine intolerance that cleared up soon after I increased my vitamin C intake. I’ve got posts on that as well.

(Michael) #12

I just might stalk your experience as I know you left carnivore a few months after I started. As you may know, I am heavy into organs and get much more vitamin C (and all my vitamins and minerals) than most other carnivores. Even then, I found out I was short copper at one point. I am a bit confuddled on a few things carnivore in terms of minerals and vitamins (not enough science has been published on differing needs for example), but all mine have now come back as within range on my bloodwork, so I think there may be more than one valid approach to regulating minerals/vitamins. One is in pure volume as I do, and another might have more to do with ratios, which is a little more difficult to balance without further study.

#13

remeber also people WE NEED INSULIN LOL
it is NOT some evil if in the right context and is a total survival issue in physical bodies so heck I DISAGREE with line one from what was posted.

Wrong. but a start point but a 'very weak start point with 0 science to back this even and it is a ‘hmmmm’ but it can draw people into a more low carb eating menu for sure.

remember this is reply is one doing this for years and learning thru real science…not someone hoping to jump on some ship that will sink from someone saying the above if it won’t suit me perfectly…ugh…I think ‘real science’ nutrition takes time but applaud those who can drag some this way and then HOPE the human thinks literally for themselves at some point and researches real truths that dragged them this way cause they needed it!

I despise the ‘total to fit all’ BS out there and this is one if ya ask me but again I say one thing, it can draw people into their own body conclusions if they follow this way and find themselves on the right path.

science is easy. NOT ONE CARB from plant matter is needed in the physical body…now after that how it is warped and changed on anyone, any human eating a ‘more keto’ menu and dumping carb plant intake lower is just simple guess work.

so this is my opinon on it all :slight_smile: but key being we can be shown SO MUCH and how plant carbs ‘fit into our lives’ easily but is is SO personal on each of us that where does the stupidity and ignorance of finding real truths to suit us, from what we read as truths by ‘some guru or others’ as they spout off, and they are not, fit us, not real for us? We all have to find just that! :100:

and we ALL walk that path to science and real. Most of us here have done just that :ok_hand:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #14

I believe this remark by Dr. Mercola is pure speculation, not driven by data, and I suspect the actual situation is far more nuanced. When insulin and glucagon are in balance, there are other factors that also regulate serum glucose, as is shown by those studies in which rats and mice are treated in such a way as to prevent them from from secreting both insulin and glucagon (usually they are bred not to secrete one, and their ability to secrete the other is chemically destroyed). Instead of becoming diabetic, they remain euglycaemic. Although these are animal studies, there is reason to believe that the findings probably carry over into people.

For one thing, the effect of protein consumption on ketogenesis is not particularly well-understood (as witness the debate between those who say that too much protein inhibits ketosis and those who claim there is no such thing as too much protein). Not to mention that Prof. Bikman and our own Amber O’Hearn have recently gone on record speculating that the blood-sugar rise on long-term keto may be the result of insufficient dietary fat, which forces the body to provide energy from a different source, i.e., glucose.

I suspect the real picture may actually be even more complicated than any of these speculations.

ETA: Having read further down the thread, I have to disagree with Karen (@Fangs) and say that it is actually well-demonstrated that insulin-resistance is the result of over-consuming carbohydrates and sugar. She is absolutely correct to say that we need insulin; the problem comes when we eat too much of foods we did not evolve to eat much of. (There is strong evidence to suggest that if our ancestors ate carbohydrate at all, it was seasonal and not in great quantity.) There are people who can eat a high carbohydrate load and not develop insulin-resistance and metabolic dysfunction, but they are greatly outnumbered by those who react to a heavy glucose load by over-secreting insulin, which leads to insulin-resistance.

The problem is not transient highs in either serum glucose or serum insulin, but the fact of chronically elevated levels of first, insulin, and later on, glucose (as the body stops responding as well to the insulin secreted to try to keep glucose in check). Hyperinsulinaemia and hyperglycaemia both damage the body. Insulin is secreted in the first place to deal with hyperglycaemia (since it can be fatal), and over time, the cells that are supposed to take in the excess glucose find it harder to do so, which requires more and more insulin to force them. This hyperinsulinaemia is the very definition of insulin-resistance, in fact.

This is my problem with cyclic keto. I have recovered my health by eating in a way that lowers my serum glucose and my serum insulin, and I am not willing (carb cravings aside) to try to raise either of them on purpose. What my body does when I eat a proper human diet is not nearly of such concern. The arguments for deliberately and intentionally re-introducing carbohydrate into my diet all sound to me like arguments for deliberately and intentionally re-introducing alcohol back into my life—and neither is a good idea, trust me on this.

#15

I say DUH YEA and SO correct it is crazy on how I feel on this one :scream_cat::rofl:

but life and learning is dragged by those who publish for us to read I assume? :wink: :100:

ain’t that the way since the first written text on the planet that had no context or science behind anyting? :joy_cat:

(Bob M) #16

Not to mention that even if what they say is true, is it bad? That is, if you get “higher” blood sugar due to eating higher protein, is that bad?

I can hypothesize that it’s good, at least in people who are exercising. And LMHRs who exercise tend to have higher blood glucose and lower ketones, which fits with this hypothesis.

I also wonder if Amber O’Hearn’s recommendations don’t go too far to too much fat and not enough protein for those who are exercising a lot? Somehow, you have to replace glycogen in your muscles, and even Zach Bitter, an ultra-miler who stays primarily keto, says he can eat keto if he has enough time between exercise sessions. But if he starts exercising twice a day, or lowers the time between sessions, he has to eat some carbs.

And I wouldn’t doubt at all that this will vary between people, even those on the same exact workout schedules. And also on how long they’ve been keto. And then throw in different exercises (is it harder to recover from lifting weights or jogging? Does having a higher muscle mass affect this?), and it’s a mess. Difficult to interpret.

Even harder for someone like me, who has issues eating too much fat. I’ve gained weight three times on keto: (1) eating high fat because of Keto Clarity; (2) after shoulder surgery, where sleep was terrible; (3) The Croissant Diet, where I ate a TON of butter and cacao butter. Certain fats and I don’t get along.

I am getting half a pig early next year. I plan to try a week or maybe a few with eating high pork fat and much lower protein. That is, if this pork fat is different from normal store-bought pork fat, which I detest (too mushy and smells bad). It should be, but we’ll see.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #17

And that, right there, is the question.

(Nick) #18

I don’t really want to cycle too regularly if I decide to go down that route. I’m generally quite happy eating fat and meat protein.

The times I would like to come off personally are when I travel as it’s so much harder (and for me at leas) stressful to try and eat the diet in restaurants, particularly if I don’t speak language. Plus who wants to have for example, Thai food without rice :smiley:

So would the general consensus be, it’s not particularly harmful for your body to cycle in and out, say every couple of weeks or monthly?

(Bob M) #19

I don’t think it’s bad. I will have rice noodles at times, when ordering from an Asian restaurant. (I avoid wheat, so look for rice noodles.) White rice isn’t bad, either. There’s a Mexican place we go to that has a platter with a ton of meat, served on white rice. The amount of white rice is small, and I eat it with no issues (though I’d love to be able to wear a CGM all the time).

The issue really is if you’re the type that eats rice or other carbs and then ends in a spiral of carb-infested waters. Like an alcoholic who can’t drink one drink, there are those (many, many of those, most likely) who can’t have carbs or possibly sweet things. If that’s you, then it’s best to not partake. If that’s not you, and you can jump back on keto at any time, then some rice or other things aren’t bad.

I have some rice noodles, some ice cream, some chocolate, even pizza (by far my worst glucose when I had my CGM) etc. at times throughout the year. Try to keep it a low number, but don’t freak out about it.

(Edith) #20

Well, in my non-expert opinion, I would say that as long as you are the kind of person who doesn’t go off the rails after eating a spoonful of rice, you should be fine. One or two days off keto is certainly not going to wreck your health/adaptation gains. If you are a carb addict who after one bite cannot stop eating the carby item, then maybe cycling wouldn’t work for you. You do have to be careful with the slippery slope. It’s easy to turn a day into a week into a month.