Three Golden Rules of Keto (Macros)

#1

Hi everyone,

I’m new to the forum but have been keto-ing for two months this now. I am a very active individual, hitting the gym on a daily and burning an average of 500-900 calories (or 125-225g carbs, if that’s even how it works).

I read someone’s golden rule somewhere to:

  • hit protein macros (to not lose muscle),
  • only eat fat until satisfied,
  • restrict carbs to stay under 5% of your daily intake.

However, if I eat more grams of protein than fat, BUT don’t eat more protein than my macros calls for, would I still stay in ketosis?

Are these three rules great advice??

Thank you!!

#2

You might find this useful:

(Alec) #3

Joysu
Not quite right. Keto is less than 20g net carbs, 0.8-1g per lb of lean bodymass, and then fat to satiety. So you should be careful to limit your protein, and eat fat to satiety ie eat LOTS of fat.

The incorrect word in your post was “only” in “only eat fat until satisfied”. Remove the only, and the emphasis should be eat fat to satiety.

Don’t get suckered into eating more protein than you should. There is some debate about the correct levels of protein for keto, but what I stated above is about the middle ground. It isn’t much!!
Cheers
Alec

(Ron) #4

I did a self experiment with protein and found the higher the consumption, the lower the recording of ketone levels in my blood. As I kept upping the protein consumption the lower my level measurements went. I stopped at 1.9kg of LBM because I was getting close to being kicked out of ketosis.
Everyone will be different but this was my experience.

(Troy Anthony) #5

I am also very active and find eating too much protein being easier then too many carbs, as I only eat plants as my main carb source and could basically eat them all day with no negative affect. Protein on the other hand is much more calorie dense and easy to go over. I test a lot to see what I could get away with, and find that given my workout routines I could handle more then avg without getting knocked out of ketosis. The idea is that protein is used for muscle repair, but extra protein gets converted to glucose in the liver. I would imagine a low activity person doesn’t require much muscle repair so more protein gets converted to energy. I wouldn’t worry about losing muscle lowering your protein to the keto recommendation. Most athletes eat more protein then they need to maintain muscle mass. Again though, the more muscle breakdown you do, the more protein you could theoretically handle. The only real way to know is to test and experiment.

(Robert C) #6

Dr. Fung recommends about half that amount of protein. .8g/kg if you are trying to maintain weight - more if you want to gain and less if you want to lose.

The very interesting part of this page for me was his statement that even though people have left his clinic after losing over 100 pounds - people do not have to go have skin removal surgery after fasting the weight off because they broke down protein (i.e. skin) through fasting.

(Robert C) #7

I always wondered why people are trying to retain muscle while losing weight. Your point is to get smaller. After losing 50 pounds my legs simply need to do a lot less work every single time I stand up, walk, etc. I would have to live in the gym to keep all that muscle I don’t really need.

(Rob) #8

Standard advice and the science is based on KG of LBM not lbs. That would more than double the protein intake if you used the imperial measures and prevent low protein intake versions of keto (which works for most people). You can certainly eat safely at these levels but most should start lower.

(Alec) #9

Bob
You are absolutely right, and I stand corrected. It should be 0.8-1g per kg of LBM.
Cheers
Alec

(Raj Seth) #10

Start here:
I am 215lbs, 5’8", 54 yo - to compare my numbers
on 2KD podcast, they summarize their rules of being ketogenic at the beginning of every podcast.
Limit carbs to only incidental carbs (I target 0, usually <10)
moderate amount of protein (I target e100gm, or a 1/2 lb of fatty ribeye a day)
Get ALL your energy from FAT (I just eat till satiety)

incidental carbs - from green leafy vegetables. <20 grams is low enough to maintain lipolysis/ketosis for all. Your limit may be different - have to experiment to find out.

moderate protein- is just enough to provide for muscle maintenance - wide window of amount - from .4 gm/kg to 1.2gm/kg of Lean body mass. Excess protein is converted to Carbs by the body… Lean body mass is about 80-90% of your slimmest weight as an adult. if youve never been not obese as an adult (like me), then can use 60-70% of your lowest weight - doesnt need to be super precise

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #11

No, your point is to get smaller. Not everyone has the same goals that you have.

#12

The ONLY macro-nutrient that determines if you are eating in a ketogenic state are carbs, fat and protein can be played with as much as you want. And please don’t fall prey to the myth of “too much protein” kicking you out of ketosis.

(Jennifer Kleiman) #13

I naturally gravitate to eating 1:1 protein:fat grams and have lost 100 lbs that way. The last 10 pounds came off by intentionally cutting back on the fat and eating lots of only lean meat. My ketones were through the roof during that time, I saw no evidence of reduced ketones from eating protein. Ketones are produced when your body is burning bodyfat.

The “eat fat to satiety” thing works for some people but not for everyone, and depends on your definition of satiety and internal satiety signalling.

(Robert C) #14

I think there is a raging debate out there on this topic - and I do not know if such general statements apply to everyone (and even if they did - whether a high protein intake that can still keep you ketogenic is a good idea from other health perspectives).

But, people should experiment on their n=1 if they want to try it. If you seriously think 80-15-5 or 75-20-5 (macros trying to get you to ketosis / fat adaptation quickly) are not liberal enough on protein then pull out your blood ketone meter and check the effects on yourself of upping protein and lowing fat. Ignore the raging debate and see if you are happy with your meter’s readings.

Otherwise, if you are not willing to measure, I would stick with the big names in keto suggested macros (because they are the big names in keto and you are in the ketogenic forums). They can read studies and watch YouTube videos also - I have confidence that if they saw an equally good (holistically speaking) approach to obtaining / maintaining keto, they’d start spreading the word.

(karen) #15

I’ve been following this exchange. I agree that not everyone is trying to get smaller, but I do think it’s an interesting point to remember: there’s nothing particularly horrifying about a bit of muscle loss when “shrinking” if you started out with enough muscle for your weight and you’re not aiming for an athletic body or lifestyle. Muscle loss is always made out as if you’re going to look like a Biafran refugee. - Personally I want to get stronger, which means keeping the muscle I have and adding to it, but that’s not everybody’s gig.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #16

Which big guns? Volek, Phinney, Rosenstein and Fung? Or Eades, Naiman, Bikman, Noakes, Baker?
Naiman and Baker… technically the biggest guns in the whole Low Carb universe. :wink:
There are big guns on all sides of the protein discussion.

Context matters.

(Jennifer Kleiman) #17

Eric Westman too, love that guy. And I like @carl’s new doc Ken Berry, cool dude. Everyone’s got slightly different ideas and approaches, and everyone’s got different bodies. I just want the results I’m striving for!

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #18

Ultimately, keep your carbs below a certain point. That is the most important thing. The whole protein controversy is a matter of context, goals, personality, and details. Carbs <50, <30, <20, net or total, whatever… that’s the first rule that EVERYONE in the movement agrees on.

(Roy D Rushing Jr ) #19

Personally I’d like the muscle to show through for aesthetic purposes, and I’d like to keep my strength. Strength is good for every day life. Lifting, carrying, defending myself, etc. I really don’t define muscle as something I need to say, stand up from my desk. It’s something I want because it makes my life more enjoyable. Being able to lift my own bodyweight and move about unassisted is definitely the baseline I want to stay well above, but is there anything wrong with aspiring for more than that?

#20

BS