Thought Experiment

(Austin McDermott) #1

In my mind, we essentially ran a worldwide, 50+ year experiment of what happens on a low fat diet beginning with the Ancel Keys Seven Countries Study. Result: a high carb and low fat diet leads to insulin resistance.

Now let’s flip the coin with a little though experiment: what if we demonized carbs in the 70’s and everyone was eating LCHF for the past 50 years? Would high levels of glucagon potentially result in glucagon resistance accompanied by a host of similar health issues that have followed from insulin resistance?

I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from Keto with this post, but one of the primary arguments I hear form people is that eating in any extreme way is potentially harmful. As a 28 year old with no signs of insulin resistance or diabetes and no family history of diabetes, this is a hard argument to refute. Obviously, there will never be a 20-50 year study to see the long-term effects of this WOE.

My overall question is: does anyone have any science to say why consistently high levels of glucagon won’t cause as many issues as high levels of insulin?

If not, wouldn’t a better diet (assuming your metabolism is not yet deranged) be to eat how your ancestors ate with some sort of seasonal rotation of carbs (i.e., fruit in the summer)?

(bulkbiker) #2

One of your premises… that keto is an “extreme” way of eating is flawed.
Eating real food prepared at home is the way people ate pre Ancel Keys.
The pre packaged garbage that most people eat today is the extreme way of eating.

#3

I think you ask a good question. My sense from doing the research last year is that a whole food very LFHC can work and so can a LCHF diet for the IR and CVD. Moderation does not seem to work well in people with preexisting conditions as the fat and carbs seem to set each off. In a healthy person, maybe. For most cancer prevention I think LC and annual EF is necessary. I do think there are some mental clarity benefits to keto as well, whether in terms of energy or organization or controlling ADD I cannot say. Before you consider yourself healthy I would get a fasting insulin test to make sure.

It is scary at <30 and n=1 is great in the short term but I am not sure about the long term. Personally, if I had no health problems or weight to lose (which I have plenty) I probably would go more towards paleo. I am hoping that one day I can eat paleo plus dairy but I doubt it will ever happen and I have accepted that but I am in my 50s.

Absolutely you should be eating real food without processing or additives, I would avoid wheat unless you come from an ancestry that was big on that and have no family history of autoimmune problems. Even then I would stay towards sprouted wheat or einkorn wheat. I would avoid all seed oils and any products made from them because of the processing, gmo (soybeans) and the risk due their instability. I would do this regardless of what diet you are on. I agree that eating whole food is not radical but keeping carbs under 20g and being in ketosis is not part of the mainstream. We do not know the long term effects but I personally think you can only benefit from avoiding grain based carbs, carbs as a whole, no idea

(Adam Kirby) #4

The flaw in your premise is equating the levels of glucagon on keto with the levels of insulin on the SAD, since glucagon is naturally self regulating (when your liver makes glucose your insulin goes back up and glucagon drops). No such homeostasis with the current food environment and insulin. The master hormone in this system is insulin not glucagon.

(Karen) #5

How important is Leptin in all this??

K

(Adam Kirby) #6

As far as I understand it’s important that your leptin goes up after you eat, to signal the body to burn energy and convey satiety. Obviously don’t want to have chronically high leptin , which results in leptin resistance and happens to the obese on a standard western diet. I have also read in a couple places that occasional high-carb cheat meals are good for resetting leptin signalling. What the specific mechanism is behind this has never really been satisfactorily explained to me.

I think there is merit in a cyclical or seasonal diet from the point of view that it’s probably better to be good at burning both glucose and fat than just fat, and maybe long-term VLC decreases your glucose handling capabilities. Just a speculation. I think if you improve your metabolic health to a reasonable degree there should be no fear of occasionally eating high carbs.

(Austin McDermott) #7

I see your point, and I agree to some extent. But I find it hard to believe that people were staying under 20g of net carbs when fruit was readily available.

Regardless, this doesn’t really address my main issue: does forcing the body to continuously create its own glucose have long-term side effects?

(Austin McDermott) #8

Yes, I completely agree. I think I might just up my carb intake slightly for occasional periods. Carbs from sweet potatoes, beans, rice, and some fruit.

(Austin McDermott) #9

Yeah, I figured this was a flaw as well. I just have no clue as to the extent; I don’t know how much glucagon our pancreas is secreting while eating keto. I assume it could be relatively high at times for an active, insulin sensitive person eating less than 20g of net carbs per day. But I agree that it probably still wouldn’t come anywhere close to the amount of insulin from eating large amounts of carbs in at least three meals a day.

(Adam Kirby) #10

To me glucagon on keto is regulated pretty much exactly like it was evolved to do. I’d argue there’s a natural limit on glucagon since it is dependent on insulin, and the very mechanism of glucagon results in increasing your blood sugar.

That said I have no problem with the idea of periodically ingesting healthy carbs.

(bulkbiker) #11

Yeah but fruit would have been readily available for a very short season and used for fattening up for winter. Not available all year round.
I would still maintain that the amount of processed readily available carbs in today’s average diet is the extreme way of eating rather than wholesome home cooked food.

(Rob) #12

As others have mentioned the logical flaw is that there is some assumption that a ‘balanced’ macro diet is our evolutionary objective or norm, which as pointed out has never been the case. The priority of hormones seems to prove this since insulin is the master, evolutionarily no doubt designed to make use of the seasonal fruit availability but run amok under modern diets.

#13

I would choose some but not all of those. While I see nothing wrong with some sushi rice in small quantities, I would skip rice and not make it a staple because of the arsenic and lack of fiber (brown rice has more arsenic). Perhaps look into quinoa, higher starch vegetables such as beets and butternut squash. Pasta made from beans is not too bad and loaded with fiber. Perhaps even an organic potato

(Dan Dan) #14

go ask a Eskimo :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(Trish) #15

Maybe we need to have a forum group reunion in 30 years where all the members who have stayed keto long-term can discuss their then current health statuses (which will hopefully be awesome ). I vote we hold an actual reunion somewhere with a beach so we can sip ketoade while relaxing in the sun. (Freezing rain here this morning; I miss the sun and its warmth).

(Sophie) #16

There’s KetoFest up in CT. The Dudes just started last year so I don’t think they plan on going anywhere any time soon. And you can go annually like a family reunion. :+1:

(charlie3) #17

The statistic that got my attention is that upwards of 50% of Amereican adults either have type 2 diabetes or are at high riisk of getting it and my be it’s just a matter of time before the other half are the same. It’s glaringly obvious that the cause is diet and the culprit is carbs. My personal respoonse is to eliminate carbs from my diet RIGHT NOW to minimze the riisks.

But wait, there’s more. Combined with exercise I feel AMAZING. Food is more important than before but eating is less important. Being hungry feels almost as good as feeling satiated. That’s power I’m learning to enjoy as it develops. You can eat all the carbs you like. It’s a fee country. I’m taking a different approach.

(Miss E) #18

*an eskimo

also I believe there are studies that eskimos have different genes that processed and metabolized their diet differently to people in other regions.

(Brian) #19

I see the smiley face… so I know it was meant at least somewhat in jest.

But not every ancestor was from the frozen tundra of the north. What about the people that inhabited more temperate or even tropical areas where there really was a large amount of fruit of many different kinds available for a large portion of the year?

(Pete A) #20

Not a scientific answer, but there is some credence to the seasonality of food being incorporated into the diet in small portions.

Personally I view this as any food that may be an “occasional”, like for me nuts, cheese, chocolate.

I won’t say no to anything if appropriate and a nominal portion.