This week’s LLVLC episode with Mark Sisson

(Cathy) #61

Thank you Richard for another one of your excellent posts. I have been thinking about the questions asked by Rian and knew that his rationale was simplistic but could not answer the questions in a way that was succinct and clear. You have done so very well.

I always cringe when well meaning people wonder why the people who have excess fat are unable to lose it despite all attempts. There is a strong hint of judgement that makes me uncomfortable but I do think it is still important to discuss it.

#62

That’s always been his issue, up until the last year or two he used to bash keto, now he’s about it (kinda) or more about keeping the money flowing in. People like him regardless of how much they read or think they know will never understand being normal, let alone metabolically screwed. I’ll give the guy he knows his stuff as a whole, but he should be coaching high end athletes and target his info towards them. His rules don’t apply to the majority of us. Also, from the way I was understanding it his “keto reset” is being used as a temporary cleanse (hate that term) and then back to I’d assume Paleo? maybe I’m wrong on that.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #63

Thanks for all the good info, Richard, that was clarifying.

(as well as stress and inflammation)

My perfectly-run keto system can sink overnight like the Titanic just by adding stress and the subsequent inflammation, I seem to be exquisitely sensitive to it. Stress laughs at my macros.

Is there an acknowledged medical condition that encompasses a body’s compromised ability to handle stress/inflammation similar to the way Metabolic Syndrome hinges on insulin resistance? Not specific ailments like rheumatoid arthritis, but an entire condition? If there isn’t, I’ll bet there soon will be. Tick-tock.

#64

Primal.™

(Jim Russell) #65

I have met Mark in person and I think the characterization of him as cashing in on keto to keep the money flowing in is not just wrong it’s really rather unkind. My impression of him is that he is generous with his time and very compassionate. Yes he makes money selling paleo books, foods and supplements. But from what he has said he makes these products because they are the products he wants to use. And when he started his web site in 2006 there was very little out there for paleo.

You’re right, he is not focused on the people who are very metabolically damaged, perhaps beyond repair. He is more focused on crossfit types who are insulin sensitive. He has always advocated a low-ish carb approach, even if he had never been a keto advocate.

Here is an article from 2008 talking about keto:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-ketosis/

He was not recommending full-time ketosis then and he’s not recommending it now, but I don’t see him “bashing” it anywhere. He has always been about getting maximum returns from minimum effort and he thinks that full-time keto is too restrictive and too difficult for most people. I think he is probably right about that.

This doesn’t sound like “bashing” to me:

My personal hunch (and I’ve said this for as long as I can remember) is that indefinite ketosis is unnecessary and perhaps even undesirable for most healthy people, and that occasional, even regular dips into ketosis (through fasting, very low-carb cycles, intense exercise) are preferable and sufficient. That way, you get the benefits of cyclical infusions of BHB and other ketones without running afoul of any potential unforeseen negative effects.

Plus, cycling your ketosis means you can eat berries and stone fruits when in season, and enjoy those otherworldly-delicious purple sweet potatoes without worrying. Personally, I like food too much to go full-on keto. You may not, and that’s okay.

If you’re thriving on a ketogenic diet, and have been for some time, keep it up. No one can take that away from you, and the studies indicate it should be safe.

But if you don’t have to remain in ketosis to resolve or stave off a health condition, if you’re just doing it to do it or for yet-to-be-realized benefits, consider rethinking your stance. And if ketosis doesn’t agree with your health or your personal performance goals, then don’t do it. It’s certainly not necessary for optimal health (if such a thing even exists!).

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-constant-ketosis-necessary-or-even-desirable/

Anyway, you can have whatever opinion you want about Mark. I just wanted to put my 2 cents out there.

#66

Thanks for this, Jim. I haven’t read everything he’s written about keto but I’ve been really surprised at the snark on here about Sisson, and also the idea that somehow he should only talk with athletes. The reason he looks like he does at 60+ might have something to do with genetics but more to do with decades of practicing what he preaches, and his approach works for a LOT of people. None of the primal success stories- or maybe a handful in a decade - are professional athletes. The others are absolutely normal people from many backgrounds, of many ages, and in various states of metabolic health. In fact I would argue that if you really put his ideas into use, including lots of n=1 experimentation based on your own metabolic history and your genetic tendencies - which would put plenty of folks in ketosis long term - and really look at the non-food areas of health, it probably works for just about everyone.

His blog isn’t for everyone - by all means, I think we should all find our best fit in terms of tone/podcast/tribe - but I don’t understand the unpleasantness.

(Jim Russell) #67

This was, in fact, pretty much how I came to keto. I weighed over 400 pounds when I first found paleo/primal. I quickly went from standard paleo to very low carb. It was not intentionally keto, but I was in ketosis a lot of the time.

Mark Sisson and Robb Wolf have both had a lot of input into how I think about health, nutrition, and exercise and I tend to think about keto from that paleo/primal mindset.

#68

Thank you @richard, that write-up and those charts were immensely helpful. I need to read/watch more stuff by Phinney. I’m a big audiobook guy but for some reason the Phinney/Volek books are only available in paperback. But I’ll have to make the time soon, it sounds like he has knowledge far beyond what I’ve come across so far in my research.

(danjo171) #69

Try YouTube. He has quite a few videos

(Stickin' with mammoth) #70

@Rian I have quite a few Phinney and/or Volek videos bookmarked. Say the word.

(Richard Morris) #71

I saw him in the presentation he did in Sydney last year, and they recorded the next presentation in Melbourne the other day.

#72

I don’t always have time for some of these lectures I want to watch but I just discovered YouTube Red which allows me to download the video and listen to the audio in the background, while driving, etc. Other than during a couple of the charts it worked really well. Can’t wait to check out more stuff by Phinney this week.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #73

Every now and then he puts up a slide that’s important to see for comprehension, but like a lot of good lecturers, he puts across his points both visually and aurally. So you’ll get almost all the goodness just by listening. He’s one of the lecturers I respect, and I’ve checked a lot of them out.

#74

Couple of things. I have been ketoish for almost 6 months. I have no major diseases as far as I know but his approach would not work for me and if I left keto/LC now and started eating purple potatoes I would be cheating in a week. I have done those diets, first time walking by sicilian pizza and they are over. It is a slippery slope. He wants to do a carb cycling diet, fine but please do not call it keto as it will confuse the newbies and will not work for the deranged. Then 6 months from now you have another person saying how keto did not work and they gained back the 10 lbs, kilos, stone or whatever. It dilutes the effectiveness.

As for metabolism, I spent the weekend with naturally thin family. They are able to stay in homestasis in a way I am not. A couple even said, if I eat too much on one day I am not hungry the next day. None of their weights have fluctuated more than 5 lbs their adult lives. Pre keto if I ate too much on one day I ate even more the next day! There is no way they can begin to understand my situation and have the decency not to pretend they may

#75

His approach is evolutionary basis with a strong bias to LC and then use n=1 to find what works for you. Most recently he’s been encouraging everyone to try an intense time in ketosis so that they have a point of departure re: fat burning, then… n=1.

Isn’t that exactly what’s worked for you? Ketosis, and then recognizing what does or doesn’t fit your own body and current situation?

If folks hear “carb cycyling” and miss the “personal experimentation to find what fits for you”… I don’t know, that’s a pity but not his fault.

I feel like most of the snark is based on some variation “he doesn’t know what it feels like to be me.” He’s definitely fortunate that he found some of this stuff early enough - in part because of some other pretty intense health issues - that he never did the damage to his metabolism that many of us have accumulated over the years. So now that others have discovered ketosis he needs to stop talking about it because he’s already got a six-pack?

#76

How heavy or thin he should not be the focus. To clarify I am not into paleo or primal, I am here for keto LC. I have read his column from time to time because Denise Minger guest writes or someone else I find interesting.

Hearing him talk or write about purple potatoes temps me tremendously, I do hope that in a year or two when I am at my ideal weight, and my blood sugar is always under 80 fasting that I will be able to include them. However that is a dream and not my current reality and may never be.

Meanwhile, there are many people like me out there who need keto for the satiety. They may not compulsively research like I do. They will hear someone mention keto, see his book and pick it up thinking it is real keto. It is not. Call it carb cycling, call it temporary keto but this is not a long term solution that someone like me would need. I have 4 friends who are just like me but would never reseach. It goes back to @richard 's original comment, this will only work for a small number of people not the majority carb addicted overweight insulin resistant

#77

I wasn’t talking about whether you’re primal or paleo - just giving his background.

I’ll let you know when I get the book but I doubt he calls carb-cycling “keto.” He knows what ketosis is, and he feels there’s an evolutionary basis for cycling of macronutrients (which there is unless you’re Inuit) but that we all - or very nearly all - will thrive with at least some longish periods in ketosis, so he’s encouraging more people to at least attempt it. If folks get a guide into ketosis, spend some time there and then are able to assess how they feel, the rest is up to them (and that doesn’t even involve intensive research).

But I’m happy to fill in more once I see the book.

#78

I agree we are speculating until we read the book.

It sounds like he is encouraging paleo people to become keto periodically rather than encouraging keto people to change their macro nutrients.

I think this forum is not his target market. However he was on LLVC and we are Jimmy’s. It did seem like from the podcast that he was targeting the average person

#79

But I hear that you’re worried that folks who are seriously metabolically challenged will hear him talk and try cycling carbs, thereby missing what could be a life-changing keto journey for them. But if their approach is that casual - missing most of his actual recommendations about it and disregarding their own experience - honestly … I don’'t know, I think this goes back to some of the threads where we all come to “well, you can lead a horse to water, but…”

Many of the people who have been eating very LC for years truly find that full-time keto was great for them for a long while but that working in periods of carbohydrates is actually a crucial piece of the health puzzle for them. I don’t think we have enough long-term data to see what happens when - say - your fasting bs stabilizes at or below 80. It might be that you still prefer ketosis for a number of reasons, but it’s possible that suddenly the crazy hold that carbs had on you has been loosened considerably… it seems like we can’t know beforehand and it’s so individual that we just have to figure it out on our own in the end.

I’m not diabetic or pre-diabetic, nor do I have any diabetes in my family, but I’m pretty passionate about how our medical recommendations and our conventional nutritional advice has been a disaster for our health, and about how cruel (and wrong, and misguided) “eat less move more” is for folks once insulin resistance has set in. In fact my family has to tell me to shut up about it already :slight_smile: Most of that indignation and understanding comes from reading folks like Mark Sisson (also Robb Wolf, Chris Kresser).

[oops - was writing as you posted… ]

#80

I understand what you are saying but think of it this way, the developed world is in the state that it is in because most people blindly either follow recommendations (T2 patients told to match their insulin to their carbs but not limit them in a real way) or because they find it all too hard and want to enjoy their beer and pretzels while watching the game and they still think healthy eating involves whole grains and cardboard. They do not even realize they could have red wine or scotch and chicken wings and lettuce burgers on lettuce instead and be more satisfied.

I am sure Mark’s book will be great for some people and it is much better than what many people currently eat.

One friend is starting keto. Yesterday she probably ate 200 grams of protein. She read Atkins years ago and has been on Atkins and really believes that Atkins is 20 grams of carbs and all the protein you want. We had a long talk this morning and I explained about the 1 gram per kilo of LBM, she is off to buy avocados and sour cream

She has tried her high protein version of keto many times. It works until she cheats and then everything is gained back plus some extra. I am hoping this time the fat will help her to permanently stay on