This week’s LLVLC episode with Mark Sisson

(Crow T. Robot) #26

I just listened to the pod and this is not really what he was saying – at least IMO. Maybe all humans have the potential, but not that all humans can automatically. He even referenced the Biggest Loser study and mentioned that the reason they had problems is because they were not allowed to adapt to burning fat before severely restricting. He suggested that a fat adapted person wouldn’t have the huge metabolic rate drop. He didn’t mention insulin levels specifically, but I suspect he would agree that someone with hyperinsulemia would also struggle. Not sure why Jimmy neglected to bring that up, or maybe I missed it.

(Carpe salata!) #27

Maybe someone mentioned earlier but the Okinawans (living on a south Japanese island) have one of the highest average lifespans and the greatest proportion of surviving centenarians.

(Jim Russell) #28

Yes, I think an excess of hyper palatable nearly nutrition free food is one of the biggest problems with SAD. I forgot to mention along with the other issues.

#29

Perhaps worldwide, yes. However, among the people who can afford to spend $10-30 on a diet book, its probably even lower than 15%. The Kitavans do not need Mark’s book. The people in downtown USA probably do but they are too deranged to easily go in and out of keto. After 6 months of this WOE, unless I am fasting, I have a lot of trouble getting into Keto

With the Okinawins, one theory as to why they lived so long is that during WWII they had tremendous food shortages, more than other parts of the country, so it was the caloric restrictions that extended many people’s lives. I think I saw that in a comment on one of Fung’s post some time back. Plus they actually ate plenty of meat, especially pork except when it was not available. I have not studied this area, just remember reading something along these lines

(ianrobo) #30

Well listened to it now and Mark mentioned this was very much a N=1 and for some calorie restriction may work if of course you do not feel hungry all the time.

I suspect in Jimmy’s case he is very sensitive to stress and cortisone and this has they discussed would be a major problem.

I would say this was an excellent podcast and in fact JM and MS got on very well with no aggravation as some may have hinted at.

(Richard Morris) #31

They were all on a high fat diet - it was body fat they were burning.

(Richard Morris) #32

BTW: I split this topic off so we can have a discussion on the subject of Mark Sissons “Ketogenic zone” theory without contributing to the water under the bridge in the other topic.

#33

Folks, can we keep in mind that Mark Sisson is someone who’s been questioning CICO and talking and writing about ketosis from before most of us on here even knew what a ketone was? Yes, he has a new book on ketosis and of course he wants it to sell - but this is an area in which he’s been researching and experimenting for a very long time.

I don’t always agree with him, but if you spend any time on Mark’s Daily Apple you’ll see some very thoughtful writing a wide range of health-related topics and some indepth analysis of insulin, insulin resistance, T2D. He considers metabolic health the starting point for most healing, and folks who follow PBlueprint often have phenomenal results. He’s reversed many health problems himself, but it was from the perspective of a skinny endurance athlete, so his own path has been different from that of many folks on here, but he’s all about n=1.

I haven’t heard the episode so I can’t comment on the tone or details but Jimmy’s hardly the first person that Mark has spoken to who has struggled with obesity and diabetes (and he does seem to be an outlier in terms of ketosis and results, right? so if Mark was puzzled, isn’t that true of many of us on here?).

#34

Sorry @richard! That wasn’t specifically aimed at you! I don’t know how to edit the reply portion…

(ianrobo) #35

OK Sisson’s theory is just basically carb cycling, something some people like Brian Williamson is very much against.However if you are an active person (like me) then I have stayed in ketosis (as measured by breath even when I have had a lot above 50g of carbs. Look at me on holiday as mentioned in the exercise thread. Eat loads of carbs etc for two weeks, a bit of Keto readapting but within 2 days back in what I could feel was Ketosis and confirmed a few days later by Ketonix.

Mark is of course all about exercise and this is key to all he says and even Jimmy has admitted he is looking to now exercise which is great.

#36

Minor quibble here. Mark is not all about exercise. I believe he coined the phrase “chronic cardio” and recommends that people move frequently (walk) at a slow pace and lift heavy things once in a while. (Who can disagree with that?) His experiences as a marathoner convinced him that exercise is not the answer. He thinks diet is the ultimate driver of health. So, I think it misses the mark a bit (pun intended!) to say he’s all about exercise, which has a feel of something more intense and formal than what he actually recommends.

(Erin Macfarland ) #37

Yeah he’s a bit too slick and pompous for me :roll_eyes:

(Richard Morris) #38

No worries. It was well said.

Yes Mark Sisson is a leader of the paleo/primal/keto community. That was probably why I found remarkable his knee jerk reaction to jimmy’s inability to eat carbs one day and be back in ketosis the following day - “How many Calories do you eat … well try eating less”.

#39

There seems to be a reluctance to acknowledge that a person can seemingly damage their metabolism beyond repair. Sure they can improve it dramatically as Jimmy has but maybe there is no way to fully recover from decades of 20 plus cans of coke per day. Maybe analyzing these types of people as an insight into all things keto is a fool’s errand of sorts? Personally, I’d like to stay more focused on the billions of people keto can help than the select few who may not be able to see its full benefits.

#40

Was this advice inappropriate after Jimmy said he consumes 2500 calories a day? If so, what’s your take as to why? Is this advice to try “eating less” never appropriate?

I was more surprised and a little disappointed he didn’t ask Jimmy any specifics about what he ate and what his typical day looks like. I would have loved to have heard that and I agree with you that before you go to the “try eating less” angle, at least first learn what comprises those 2500 calories.

(Chris) #41

Butter. Poor guy.

#42

I think that’s 2015 Jimmy, not current Jimmy. I admire that he’s up front on a lot of things, but daily food journals are not something I ever see him post.

(Richard Morris) #43

Yeah there was a lot more important things to find out - like are you stopping at satiety.

(Cathy) #44

I listened to that podcast yesterday and think there is no doubt that M.S. was talking about CICO when suggesting that J.M. eat 1800 calories per day. He actually talked about there having to be a ‘deficit’ ~ “no other way to lose”.

I also thought I could hear eyes roll at the suggestion of employing CICO with te knowledge that JM has gone on very long fasts which could also be considered ‘calorie reduction’. I thought M.S. demonstrated a real lack of insite and understanding. It came down to the usual ~ ‘can’t seem to lose weight? You must be eating too much’. So old and tired and wrong. JMHO

#45

Here are a few questions to keep the conversation going because I’m finding this very interesting and I don’t think we have all the answers yet:

  • If eating “fat to satiety” happens when a fat-adapted person eats around 800 calories a day is that person damaging their metabolism by not eating more?

  • If the body, when fat adapted, is just as content using your love handles for fuel as it would be with using consumed coconut oil then why does it not make sense that eating less coconut oil would result in the loss of more body fat?

  • If aspects of keto mimic fasting (lower insulin, stable blood glucose) then why are the protein sparing & metabolic rate maintenance benefits of fasting not also realized to some extent on keto? In other words: if fasting doesn’t damage/slow metabolism then how could a keto diet which mimics fasting lead to a decreased metabolic rate if ample calories aren’t consumed?

I have some ideas on these but I’d love some input before I chime in, these questions do not get asked from what I’ve seen. And if they do get asked I’ve never seen them answered to my satisfaction.