Theory of Weight Set Point: Should we be shooing to LOWER our BMR?

(Ethan) #21

utilization isn’t a part of the equation. Lowering demand would allow the body to release the fat stores since it wouldn’t need to hold onto them to be alive in a time of famine.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #22

I’d really have to see some data on that actually happening. Rat model, something. It doesn’t really track with the experience of anyone I’ve ever met or read about.

(Doug) #23

Ethan, I think the body tries to hedge its bets both ways, i.e. if it thinks it’s really starving it will lower the BMR, that is one thing. Yet a lowered BMR won’t result in lowered fat storage - I don’t think it’s sentient to the point of saying, “We’re aiming for a given time period, so with a lower caloric expenditure per day we can reduce fat storage.” All speculation on my part, to be sure.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #24

Just read a short article by Dr. Bikman on www.insuliniq.com, in which he cites a recent study showing that high or low BMR is statistically irrelevant to gaining or losing weight. What they found did make a difference was macronutrient composition, because it affected insulin levels. He has another article on the same site about fasting, making the point that less eating allows insulin to stay lower longer. So I would guess that diet and eating pattterns are more important than BMR.

(Dan Dan) #25

:rofl::rofl::rofl: until it becomes relevant :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Ask all the members on this forum who struggle to loose or maintain a healthy weight on 1200 - 1500 kcals if they agree :wink::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(Ethan) #26

There aren’t just as many though who struggle to
lose at a stall. The point is that if the equation is wrong, it means Richard’s theory is wrong—but I am not sure that is the case.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #27

Well, if you want to pick apart the study, check out Dr. Bikman’s article. I thought his point was interesting and relevant, but then I’m neither a doctor nor a researcher.

(Dan Dan) #28

The Biggest Loser FAIL and That Ketogenic Study Success
May 3 2016 by Dr. Jason Fung, M.D.

"So, this was a Biggest Loser approach – Eat Less, Move More on steroids. What happened to their basal metabolism? They ate about 30% less, and their basal metabolism dropped about 30%. They felt cold, tired, hungry. As they ate, all their weight came right back.

This is what is sometimes termed ‘starvation mode’. This is what people imagine happens as their body starts to shut down in order to conserve energy. Basal metabolism (Calories Out) falls and you feel like crap. As you eat less, your body burns less calories, so that eventually weight loss plateaus. Then you feel like crap, so decide to eat a bit more (your hunger hormones are also rising like a spire), but not as much as you used to. But, your ‘Calories Out’ is so low that you get weight regain. Sound familiar? Happens to every dieter out there. What’s unfair, is that their friends and family silently blame the victim of having ‘fallen off the wagon’, or not having enough will power. Actually, the dietary advice – Eat Less, Move More is guaranteed to fail. So don’t blame the victim when they actually do fail."

So here’s what we’ve learned so far.

  1. Cutting calories puts you into starvation mode.
  2. The key to losing weight in the long term is maintaining basal metabolism, or keeping ‘Calories Out’ high.
  3. Failure rate of Eat Less, Move More is proven to be 99% or so. This remains the diet advice favored by most physicians and dieticians.
  4. Starvation (fasting or bariatric surgery) does not put you into starvation mode.
  5. Ketogenic diets do not put you into starvation mode.

“We need to keep basal metabolism high. What doesn’t put you into starvation mode? Actual starvation! We see this effect with either studies of fasting, or studies of bariatric surgery.”

“In 4 days of fasting, basal metabolism did not drop – instead, it is increased by 12%. Exercise capacity (measured by the VO2) is also maintained.”

(Ethan) #29

None of the explanations so far are disproofs of the theory given the assumption.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #30

Richard’s theory still has nothing to do with BMR as it’s wholly based on insulin resistance. It’s consistent with Dr. Bikman’s thoughts.

It’s really you who are putting a CICO framework of metabolism T-accounts and equations on a hormonal theory of loss.

(Ethan) #31

Nope. His theory yields the equation I gave. It has to do with the body holding onto enough ability to draw calories for the body function–which is a BMR.

(Todd Allen) #32

Many believe exercise isn’t effective for weight loss because the increased caloric burn is offset by increased hunger. If true it would seem to support your theory.

On these forums I frequently see concern of “wrecking my BMR” and eating more is the most frequently suggested fix. I suspect the most common cause of a “wrecked” BMR is a state of poor health probably aggravated by too many stresses exceeding ones capacity to cope. Undereating is stressful and so is overexercising but in appropriate doses those things are both beneficial too. Other factors such as sickness, poor sleep, chronic stress from bad work situations, relationships, finances, etc. are also important to consider and if fixable might lower the risk of wrecking ones BMR.

Weight is a primary factor in BMR calculators with BMR rising with weight. I want to lose excess fat/weight despite the expectation that this will lower my BMR. I’ll be happy if/when my appetite drops to match my BMR. Or if through strength training I can build muscle and raise my BMR to match my appetite.