The third phase of covid-19 can be brutal

(Bob M) #1

Dr. Daniel Griffin is a doctor in NYC and gives a weekly update on TWiV (this week in virology). This is his latest update:

https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-686/

There are three phases of a covid-19 infection, and the last phase is the so-called inflammatory phase (aka “cytokine” phase).

In one of his updates (not the one I posted), he discussed a husband (55) and wife who went to a funeral. They both got covid-19. The wife for the second phase got much sicker and entered the hospital. The husband seemed less sick and did not go into the hospital. The wife ended up recovering. The husband, who seemed to be doing well, died of a heart attack during the third phase.

We just learned of a woman in our town. She was 48. She got covid-19, seemed to get it not that badly, seemed to recover. She went back to work, but in the third phase of covid-19, had a stroke and died. She was slightly overweight, but had no known issues. She leaves behind her teen children and husband.

We are stunned, since she was so young and apparently healthy and worked in the local school.

This is one of the many problems with covid-19: not only is it incredibly sneaky (you can be asymptomatic and transmit the disease), but because it has an inflammation phase, anyone susceptible to inflammation is susceptible to possible severe effects.

(Jack Bennett) #2

The rapid progress of this inflammatory cascade seems to be responsible for the worst effects - neurological symptoms, “long covid”, cardiovascular events, and the more serious manifestations of lung disease. All of which we have seen lead to death.

People with preexisting inflammation or vulnerability to inflammation do seem to suffer the worst cases.

(Vic) #3

I can smell the fear,

What do we suggest:

Lock more people up? Perhaps a concentration kamp.

In absolute deads, 1 in 2000 more this year in europe. For myself and my family that means an additional chance of death this year of 1 in 20000 to 1 in 100000.

Not scary at all. I lost my compassion also.
Lost my job, lost my freedom, no more decent education for my kids lost my social life.

All covid data is garbage and corrupt due to politics and big money. Fear makes it complete and all rationality goes out the door.

Lets keep it up. No more real science and spread more fear. :+1::face_vomiting:

(Laurie) #4

I think we’re not talking about data here, but individual experience. I’m not a policy maker and am neutral on what laws, closures, etc., should be happening. But in my daily life I am constantly appalled at people who won’t stay 6 feet away from me.

(Vic) #5

The stroke victim will now be a covid19 victim instead. This new way of death classifications is used to spread fear without a honest frame of reference. In other words, the data is garbage.

I’m sorry Laurie. You can not avoid catching the virus, 6ft, mask, fear will not help. You will be infected if not already several times.
A healthy immune system is the only thing that can save you, and huge chance it will.

(Ethan) #6

Except that she was a Covid victim if Covid caused the stroke.

#7

Flu is also “sneaky”. Article from 2018, which somehow didn’t cause the same panic: https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/flu-long-term-effects . Just look at all those “long-haul” symptoms that are possible! Lock me up for my own good!

#8

Wouldn’t matter if they did. The masks everybody’s wearing aren’t capable of the filtration needed to stop a virus and even if they were, there is no positive seal so it wouldn’t matter. If you take your mask and cover in duct tape and put it on, you’ll notice something… You can STILL breathe! Think about that for a minute! People want to make this about Politics, Virtue Signaling and feel good measures but this is more about fact. The masks aren’t helping you. I know how nice the daydream is, but use your head on this. If we were both in line at the supermarket and you heard a cough, a mask (may) create a little more of a buffer since it dispersed the “cloud” a little more, but it’s still forming around the persons head, moving around with air movement and going everywhere, then gets picked up by HVAC and blown literally everywhere. When you hear that cough are you going to drop everything and run away? That’s what it would take.

I’m not a Doctor, but I used to work in in the IT/Telecom field in Gov’t labs and depending on where we were working had to wear a pretty wide assortment of gear from respirators to pretty close to HAZMAT containment suits, we had to have a lot of airborne pathogen transmittal training to be “certified” to work in those areas. I’ve had enough that I can promise you that thinking these masks are helping is nothing short of laughable. I don’t want people to needlessly spread this anymore than anybody else does, but you need to not fall victim to scare tactics either.

I’ll say this though, if you really believe that the masks can stop it, why are you worried about others not wearing it? You have yours on right? :thinking:

#9

Unfortunately I think this can happen with many viruses, but that doesn’t make it any easier for the folks affected :cry:

#10

As far as I’m concerned that’s already happening. When you cross a border into another state to be pulled in a forced National Guard checkpoint I’d say that’s when it’s gone a little too far! This is the biggest social experiment of all time. All you gotta do is tell people it’s to “keep them safe”. Because nobody’s ever heard that one before.

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(Ethan) #11

So a cloth mask will not totally stop the virus, but what it does do is block the largest particles and droplets from being expelled into the air in suspension. It doesn’t make it appropriate to sit in the same room with somebody for hours upon hours, but it does limit the radius around an infected person that the particles are likely to land. It will protect better against the spread of flu, but it will still have an effect on sars-cov-2. So if you are right next to a masked infected person for 30 minutes in a close room, it probably doesn’t do too much for you. However, if you were 15 feet away for 5 minutes, it very well might.

#12

Maybe so, but does that have significant effect on viral transmission in a population? The evidence appears to say “no”. See https://rationalground.com/mask-charts/.

ETA: Most of those charts show “cases” which is probably a useless metric, so maybe they aren’t that illuminating.

(Ethan) #13

I’d go by hospitalizations, not cases. Cases require people submitting to testing. But the point is that it does make a difference on flu. It is likely to make one for short-term exposures with covid also.

(Laurie) #14

I’ve removed mention of masks from my post. My problem is not with people who don’t wear masks. Sorry that that prompted comments.

I’m sure we’ve all heard every side of every viewpoint by now. Including mine.

#15

Ya, it’ll stop the largest ones maybe, but the rest are still out. In the training we got they had simulated coughs and sneezes with UV charged particles and some in smoke/fogged rooms so you could see it traveling and I assure you it’s a hell of a lot faster than 5 minutes! It also really makes no difference if you are there for 5 minutes only or not, because all the other people that were in there prior have possibly sneezed, coughed, etc and that’s all picked up by the HVAC and now the air handlers are blowing it around at many hundreds of cubic feet per minute. It’s not about who’s physically next to you when you’re in an enclosed environment. People for some reason don’t want to consider that. Just like water, the air your breathing in and out will take the path of least resistance because it’s easier for you to get it that way. Unsealed masks are very much near useless in any way that matters.

#16

That’s fine, but unfortunately most people immediately go for the political nonsense side rather than think about the physical ability of them. Much easier to call somebody a covid denier than actual look into it and form an opinion based on actual fact. Not saying that’s what you’re doing because I don’t think you are, but that is what most mask conversations turn into sadly.

#17

Bob. Causation and correlation? Anecdotes that drive further study.

Could the ‘inflammatory’ stage already be quiescent in situ in what is regarded as the ‘normal’?

It just means that the virus is a potentiator or catalyst to events, rather than the direct cause.

Isn’t this information indicating the plausibility of a narrative that many people are either inflamed, or primed in a pro-inflammatory physiological state due to the food and living environment?

Isn’t the root cause worth investigating the reason for the inflammation, and if it exists outside of the viral infection?

(Vic) #18

Makes sense, I will retreat from this tread, I should not be in any covid19 discussions to begin with.
I actually want to get the virus asap so I can become part of the herd.
I was forced to take a covid test again last week and to be honest, It was disappointingly negative again. I’m still a danger to those who need protection.

I want to french kiss a boy or girl with covid19.

This probably a bit to controversial for most, so I should not be in covid19 discussions.

Paix

(Jack Bennett) #19

I’d say yes. Given the demonstrated vulnerability of those with pre-existing inflammatory disease, it’s a very plausible hypothesis. The correlation between the most significant comorbidities and bad covid outcomes is (1) incredibly strong and (2) apparently bidirectional.

We need more studies (hundreds more) on metabolic health markers in covid. The clinical data is so suggestive.

#20

I find it so frustrating that co-morbities- and metabolic health- are not part of the official narrative. It’s incredibly clear that metabolic dysfunction makes you more susceptible to serious problems with COVID, and there’s pretty good evidence that vaccines are less effective in folks who are metabolically compromised, so the folks who need the vaccine the most might actually get the least protection from it.

In general, we know what makes us more susceptible to new viruses, especially variations of influenza and corona, which mutate and show up in different strains every few years. Are we just going to go through this whole horrible panic and shut down every time? And require everyone to take multiple yearly doses of vaccines? This is like a pharmaceutical exec’s wet dream but seems like a horrible way to run a society.

Also we’re conflating “safety” (i.e. not dying of COVID) with “health.” I hear so many people saying that health is important and that’s why they can’t wait for the vaccine. Vaccines can be great - I’m glad we have them for so many deadly diseases - but they don’t confer health.