The Magic Pill, grass fed meat, and sustainable agriculture

[mtncntrykid]

The "what if " debate as I see it is of little value other than for entertainment only. Facts are that progression throughout the world has required changes in order to supply demand. Explosive populations around the globe dictate necessity in order to keep death from starvation at bay. In the hunting world, populations are controlled with harvest to maintain healthy herds based on the amount of feed available. I believe the human race to think this an unacceptable means of resolution for itself and will continue to try to find available means to accommodate the evolution of it’s species. This being forward advancement, and trying to re-live historical means isn’t feasible. Thus the entertainment value only. IMHO

[FrankoBear]

The film also speaks to Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms who raises meat producing animals and birds in a systemic way; regenerative agriculture, that builds soil and improves the nutrient value of the eventual farm produce. His small farm is intensively highly productive built on natural biological systems.

Improved nutrient density from improved farming methods driven by a market for these foods.

Add that to reduced/ moderated protein intake on a ketogenic way of eating. Then there is plenty of headroom to provide protein and fat for a large population of humans while regenerating agricultural production systems and available agricultural farm land.

Ruminant herbivores are important for building nutrient rich soils that builds nutrient rich plants. Those nutrients eventually end up in, and as, us, whether we eat meat or not.

[Bellyman]

If the whole world went keto, and/or mostly carnivore, would we have enough land that could be switched from growing grains and produce to grazing land to support the demand for meat as naturally grass fed.

Guess I didn’t say it so well in my post last night. The answer is, YES, we have way more than enough land to provide for the needs of a keto nation if we used it wisely. There is no shortage of land.

Any change towards keto or any other similar eating style will be gradual and it’s not going to happen all at one time. People don’t change overnight and agriculture won’t either. A decade or two ago, there were a few oddities such as Salatin that mainly played to an audience of homesteaders. Today, there are still homesteaders but there is also a nice crop of people producing food on smaller scales. There are even a few that are growing beyond just their own labors and becoming closer to what might consider “mid sized” operations (still small compared to the likes of Tyson, but growing, nonetheless).

[gabe]

without having to compete against competitors fed with cheap, subsidized grain

Yes!!!

[Bellyman]

Having said that I believe men like Joel Salatin have stated they would just like a level playing field without having to compete against competitors fed with cheap, subsidized grain.

I’ve never been a fan of government subsidies. Farmers are a pretty resourceful lot and I personally think they’d be better off without the government interventions. Ethanol is another huge topic that relates somewhat as the corn being grown for ethanol competes for land that would otherwise be usable for food production. Messy…

[collaroygal]

Previous threads about grass fed vs. grain.

Grass fed/finished vs Grain/Corn Finished (or fed)

In the episode with Dr Nasha Winters at around the 38:25 mark she says “I’ve looked at the labs of someone who’s eating corn fed and finished cows to grass fed and finished cows. Insulin growth factor is a night and day difference. You can see that it is much harder to lower the blood sugar in people eating corn fed animals than they are over grass fed. You can see the data thousands of times over.” I wonder if she really meant corn fed and finished because from what I understand about most co…

Show me the science re: grass fed beef

Everyone here is all about grass fed and it doesn’t make sense to me. It’s lean and funky tasting. Is there REAL science behind the movement. I doubt it.

There is also the excellent podcast with Dr. Peter Ballerstedt. Peter is an expert in the nutrition of ruminants.

2 Keto Dudes - Episode #81 - Join the Ruminati with Dr. Peter Ballerstedt

Other protein would be available from other sources besides beef. We eat bison most of the time with elk, venison, and duck in our mix as well. So sources of protein that eat other sources of nutrients could be more common, so not really an issue as I see it.

[gabe]

Ya this thread is not those threads. I’m specifically talking about moving towards the holistic model that the farmer in The Magic Pill uses. This has been discussed in other documentaries too.

I do recognize the grey area that some of the participants in this thread have mentioned. At the same time, I think that it’s clear that monocultures cause a host of problems. And as plenty of people have mentioned in this thread, American monocultures (notably corn and soy) are encouraged through massive government subsidy.

Take the subsidies away and, if anything, give them back to the American taxpayer so the market can operate as intended. Better still imho, subsidize holistic farming. Why is it that our society favours the Monsantos of the world but not the little guys? Frankly it seems unAmerican!

I’m not suggesting making the perfect the enemy of the good. I guess my question is, once you take away the economies of scale of industrial cattle farming, and simultaneously let’s say hypothetically you remove grain subsidies, could pasture-raised cattle conceivably be able to cover demand?

[240lbfatloss]

I think a few of the terms used need to be clarified. In America, there are two distinct business models used to raise cattle. One is “Privately Owned” such as typical family farm operations, the other is “Packer Owned” where the cattle are owned by the meat processor, typically a corporation. When we talk about the latter, that’s typically what you’d be referring to as “industrial farming”. It’s also monopolistic, as companies control the whole process, from beginning to end. It was also illegal because of this. Packers were restricted as to how many days they could own cattle before sending them to slaughter. Now, due to the political influence of large agribusiness, much of those restrictions have been removed, at the expense of family farms. What happens is that now, when cattle prices go high, the packers slaughter their own cattle rather than buying it from farmers. This is a huge issue here in cattle country, where cattle are raised on grass and finished on corn and feed.

I just watch four steers being butchered yesterday. The butcher was amazing, it took him only 30 minutes per animal to go from on the hoof to hanging sides. I made out well, ending up with five gallons of organs for my dogs._

Ethanol is a huge Boondoggle. All subsidies and tariffs on imports should be removed.

[collaroygal]

I guess my question is, once you take away the economies of scale of industrial cattle farming, and simultaneously let’s say hypothetically you remove grain subsidies, could pasture-raised cattle conceivably be able to cover demand

And the point I was trying to make is different proteins require different fuels. So things other than grain can be used to raise them. We can eat other proteins besides beef. Moose is great meat, very healthy, and they eat willow and water grasses. I enjoy eating beef, but I like other animals as well. I grew up where rabbit and squirrel could be had for dinner.

I’d love to see the subsidies used in other ways besides corn,GMOed soy, and wheat too.

[kib]

It’s an interesting question because it touches on a lot of different issues. We actually produce more than enough big 3 (soy wheat corn) to feed the world, when people starve it’s a matter of distribution, not worldwide scarcity. If you were to try to feed the world with ‘holistic meat’, the distribution problem would be much worse - the reason we started agriculture in the first place, I think, is because grains can be stored. So that’s one problem.

Problem 2 is that population keeps growing. We can figure ways (at least temporarily) to force more calories out of each acre of commercial big 3, but you can’t overcrowd a holistic environment to get more meat out of it. So even if we had enough meat today, if everyone gets fed, we get more people but we don’t get more land or more meat.

I think the world of holistic farming. To both ‘save the planet’ and provide people with healthy food, it’s the way to go. But I do have to ask … how elitist is this? Even if we subsidize holistic farming rather than big 3 … we need to stabilize population to make it work, and no one I know of is planning to personally decrease the surplus population to make that happen. It’s a dickens of a conundrum.

[Baytowvin]

decrease the surplus population to make that happen. It’s a dickens of a conundrum.

I like what you did there. It makes me feel smarter than I am that I got that.

[kib]

Made me feel smarter than I am to say it.

[Capnbob]

I’ve never been a fan of government subsidies. Farmers are a pretty resourceful lot and I personally think they’d be better off without the government interventions.

I agree that government subsidies are often misapplied but the important thing to remember is that farmers as we like to think of them (independents) are very weak from an economic POV and have no power against the buyers of their produce (agribusiness/supermarkets/etc.). Of course most US produce is pushed out by vast agribusiness who just use the subsidies to utilize their economies of scale in their vertically integrated business to crush the little guys even further by reducing market prices, which they benefit from being the processor/miller, and producer of food and feed products, so they get their margins elsewhere in the value chain.
To me, it’s not that subsidies are bad per se since they can incentivize positive behavior and protect the little guys. The fact that they don’t is more to do with the imbalance of power and the structure of our food industry and the obsolete political system in the US (lobbying, having to over-pander to low population agricultural states, etc.) rather than the subsidies themselves.

[Capnbob]

Take the subsidies away and, if anything, give them back to the American taxpayer so the market can operate as intended.

I agree with the goal of holistic farming but it is super naive to think the “market” will get us there. It is the primary libertarian fallacy to think that free markets actually exist to exert their “fair” will on demand and supply. The fact that our food industry is primarily an interconnected set of oligopolies and oligopsonies that will maintain dominant market power in any form of regulation or non-regulation means there is nothing free about these markets. Consumers are led rather than lead in most cases and with stagnating incomes for most and increasing income inequality, we are probably creating a smaller pool of buyers for expensive meat products which will offset the increase in preference amongst more affluent consumers.
There is always room for successful independent farmers producing expensive, high quality food but don’t think the system isn’t massively stacked against the meaningful expansion of this model. What you should want to do is NOT remove the subsidies but MOVE them to balance the playing field for the sustainable farming models we want against the market driven ones we have. Unfortunately the political realities really push against this outcome.

I really do support you in this effort and we should all do what we can to make it happen but don’t think the “free” market is going to get you there. That market has gotten us here.

[Capnbob]

no one I know of is planning to personally decrease the surplus population to make that happen

I can think of someone (where’s a comb-over emoji when you need one?)

[cloudy]

But then the size/amount/volume is not enough to make you feel full.

[RobC]

A 9 ounce steak has over 70 grams or protein. Depending on your size and how you calculate your keto, that could be nearly all of your protein for a day. Jumping to 16, 20 or 24 oz of steak is 125, 155 or 185 grams or protein. Those high amounts of protein - especially in one meal - isn’t very “keto”.

[Bellyman]

…it’s not that subsidies are bad per se since they can incentivize positive behavior and protect the little guys…

Problem is, a government subsidy provides incentive for big guys to get bigger just to milk the government programs (sometimes more money in the subsidy than in growing the crop) and it slants the playing field AGAINST the little guys.

To be fair, there are some programs out there for small farmers wanting to do some good things. But it’s nowhere near any level of significance as it relates to the overall picture of US agriculture. Just the amount of red tape for some of the programs is enough to discourage many small farmer wannabes. (I’ve looked at one or two myself.)

FWIW, I really do applaud the small farmers that are doing some really good things on a small scale that may only be local. I tend to support them with my business. They’re my neighbors. One guy down the road has bees (honey) and sells me eggs. A local dairy sells to just the local area, maybe a 40 mile radius, and has some of the best quality milk I’ve had. A local Amish family has some greenhouses and market gardens that produce an incredible amount of really good food over a very long season. A Mennonite family just up the road has a greenhouse setup for most anything I’d want if I were shopping for plants. (I just bought some sweet potato sprouts for my garden a couple of days ago.) And so on. Those are all people I support with my spending dollars. I believe in what they’re doing, yes, but they sell good stuff, direct to the customer, at prices that compete very nicely with anything that Walmart has to sell, with quality that is head n shoulders about anything Walmart could hope for.

I can understand that scaling up from such an operation could be quite difficult and it might introduce a lot of things that would add dramatically to the costs involved. But every one of the people I mentioned above is doing what they’re doing to make money. It’s not a charity thing. There is no fancy advertising, no fancy packaging, and for some, there isn’t even a phone number. But when word gets out to the local area, they sell their stuff. (The Amish produce stand, for example, had some nice strawberries. I stopped in one day and asked about them, they were sold out. They told me that they had picked a few hundred quarts last Wednesday and sold out within a couple of hours. Then they picked another few hundred quarts on Thursday and sold out within the day. I showed up early on Friday and was able to get a few quarts… there were about 15 or 20 quarts left.)

I have to wonder, if some of the huge tracts were divided up into 10 to say 40 acre tracts and were given a manager/owner/caretaker to make the most of that tract, what would the outcome be? I suspect with management geared towards soil building, preservation and sustainability, there would be some small farmers that would not only survive but thrive. Of course, there are some that say it can’t be done. Tell that to the likes of Joel Salatin. He’s been told it can’t be done. Tell that to Jean Luc Fortier. Those are two of the superstars that have put their money where their mouth is and are doing it. Do a little digging and you’ll find many others out there quietly making their living doing it, some of them a pretty decent living at that.

[cloudy]

I already look for the image in Google… When I look at the size, I wonder… How to feel full with a size that is smaller than 9oz then?

I know that you can add fat, but it doesn’t really make sense.(maybe I am still using the mindset from the pre-keto, where you know, the size matters. Just let’s say: At least the pasta looks bigger in serving than the meat)

[kib]