The last 10 pounds

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(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #1

So those of you who have got a way to go might or might not get annoyed with this question, but I’ve worked pretty hard (actually, I’ve eaten pretty heartily, but let’s pretend it was work :wink: ) over the past 12 months to drop nearly 15kg (about 30lb).

The last few pounds (from 82-83kg down to 79-80kg) were a real challenge. I dropped back from a moderate LCHF diet back into ketogenic Atkins induction around 6-8 weeks ago, cutting out milk, nuts, all alcohol, and virtually all fruit and even remotely starchy veg, whilst ramping up IF and introducing exogenous ketones (though I won’t be ordering those again, not really useful to me.)

My question: just keep calm and keto on? I know that at 74kg I’ll be pretty close to my goal fat %, and I’m going to have a DEXA when I visit Australia in a few weeks to see what my current status is, but in the meantime it’s like, it’s going sooooooo sloooooowly.

The good news: I get to satiety REALLY easily, and am fairly confident that I’m fat adapted. But have you guys got any hints for this last stretch – or just keep on keeping on?

G

P.S. By the way, I “cheated” tonight, which I’ve only done maybe 3 times in the past 2 months: I fasted from last night through to 7pm tonight, then had a keto meal of home-cooked Bittman Chinese chicken (steamed chicken and bok choy with a delicious tamari/scallions/ginger sauce) plus roasted broccoli with an amazing butter/cream/garlic/chicken stock sauce and I couldn’t stop eating it even though I was full after like 3 bites. So I ate well past satiety which is a big no-no.

So I was stuffed, but then I had friends come over for a once a month meeting, and I demolished cheese and wine and some – gasp! – crackers and a bit of 99% dark chocolate. I was STUFFED more than I’ve been in forever, and kept eating even though I was full bc it was so tasty, but I’ve been doing keto and LCHF for long enough that I know I’m fat adapted and I’ll be back on the wagon tomorrow.

Interestingly, looking back on tonight, my “cheat” included virtually zero sugar. The real problem tonight wasn’t the carbs, it was the eating past satiety. A VERY high-quality problem for those of us on LCHF, and it’s borne out by the science – we get to eat ad libitum, whereas sugar-burners have to have “self-control.”

Anyway, I chose crackers/chips for my guests that had zero sugar, and the chocolate had virtually zero sugar (I put a bit of stevia on dark choc to taste) – which is a big change for me. Normally if I binge, I often go hard on the sugar. Not anymore; I don’t really need it. And frankly I didn’t derive a lot of pleasure from the chips/crackers – I don’t see the need for most starchy carbs anymore when there are so many great LCHF alternatives.


KCKO: Patience pays off
20 day fast, AKA WTF was I thinking?
(Cathrine Helle) #2

The infamous last pounds / kilograms are always the hardest, and I do think that our bodies are generally more comfortable with a higher body fat percentage than what we consider ideal. It seems to me that to reach a lower body fat percentage than what is obtained by simply eating keto to satiety always requires some more extreme measures, like limiting fat or counting calories. If anyone knows otherwise, please enlighten us :slight_smile:


#3

Im looknig for advice on this too.

Im losing Motivation because I have 4 kg left to lose and have been losing at a veeery slow pace. This Weekend I lost all will power and cheated (read: binged on all sorts of sugary Foods) for 2 days, for the first time in 3 months. I gained so much weight which I want to believe is just water weight… but Im terrified that I set back my Goal another month or so… I dont know if I should eat less or more. I dont eat any of the Foods that OP cut out, should I also cut on cheese? Im 172cm and 69kg, my Goal being 65. Im at a healthy weight for sure but not where I want to be. and I hate how my Body Looks right now. Im thin all around except my gut. I hate it. At least before losing the weight (20+ Kilos) I was more proportional Mind you Im very happy I lost all this but Ive been for 2 months stuck in this weight, give or take 1 Kilo.


(Sophie) #4

I still have 30-40lbs to go but I have been trying to prepare myself mentally for this very thing. I’ve been looking at doing more/longer extended fasts. I have Dr. Fungs Obesity Code Book in queue to read and I suspect that is the route to go with those last stubborn pounds, so I am working on pushing my fasts longer. It’s gotten easy for me to do 16/8’s usually 3-4 times a week lately, so yesterday I did a 24hr and much to my surprise, it was fairly easy too. I got on the scale this morning and found I had busted a plateau that has been nagging me for literally weeks! Just something to think about.


(Adam Kirby) #5

I have broken a 6 months stall on ad-lib keto by switching to all meat+eggs. A large breakfast, smallish lunch and no dinner. IMO many people may have to dial down the dietary fat to lose those last 10-20 pounds. I didn’t want to believe it until I actually tried it but my results so far are impressive. Interestingly, I never have calorie targets but I’m finding it difficult to even get to 1500 many days. Yet I feel perfectly fine and am rarely hungry. To me this is the benefit of a carnivore diet in those who already have good fat-burning capabilities but are stalled, brings down the overall cals+dietary fat while keeping excellent satiety.


(Adam Kirby) #6

I think this is very true, at a certain point ad-lib dietary fat seems to impede body fat loss. The question is, how to modify your diet without being hungry or getting into OCD calorie-counting behavior. I think ZC is the logical next step here.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #7

Don’t give up! We’re here to support you.

EDIT: Even though I’m the OP, I actually stalled for 9 months before getting through the plateau about 6 weeks ago, so I have some experience with this, and can confidently tell you that at least part of the answer is to continue with the lifestyle, perhaps cutting the fat a bit and watching that you don’t eat past satiety. Certainly that’s my biggest challenge.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #8

Yeah I think you’re onto something. Frankly my biggest challenge recently hasn’t been reverting to sugar/carbs, but overeating delicious keto foods. I cook with lots of butter and oil, and could EASILY halve that amount and still reach satiety. Last night I reached satiety after a few BITES, but stuffed myself silly because it was so delicious (if I do say so myself – I made it!)

EDIT: I want to add that I have a lot of faith in the science, having read a decent number of the academic papers (section 8 here is a great place to start on the journals, if you’re interested) and I believe the body will ultimately regulate your weight down and get rid of all the unnecessary fat as long as you don’t feed it foods that mess with insulin levels. This of course assumes that no other hormonal issues are at play affecting weight regulation.

The corollary of my belief in the science is that, while I think fasting and vigorous exercise are healthy and useful, I don’t believe they’re absolutely necessary for dropping fat. Though they may be (and have been for me) quite useful tools for getting through plateaus, ultimately I want to believe that LCHF will result in the body getting to a healthy body weight by itself.

The Church of Taubes, you might call it.


(Allie) #9

The last little bit is always stubborn, keep going.


(What The Fast?!) #10

What broke your plateau?


(Adam Kirby) #11

No doubt. The problem is for people concerned about aesthetics that “healthy body weight” may mean more body fat than you want, particularly when you’ve carried it around for a long time. There’s zero evolutionary reason for visible abs, but plenty of aesthetic reason. The challenge is to bridge the gaps between these two points in a way that isn’t miserable. And just from genetics alone, some people will greatly struggle with this while others get it effortlessly.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #12

From my OP: I dropped back from a moderate LCHF diet back into ketogenic Atkins induction around 6-8 weeks ago, cutting out milk, nuts, all alcohol, and virtually all fruit and even remotely starchy veg, whilst ramping up IF and introducing exogenous ketones (though I won’t be ordering those again, not really useful to me.)

I’ll add this: I also introduced external incentive. I had a mild competition with a friend – essentially, she would choose her goal (as specific or general as she’d like – in her case, she just wanted to get to a weight she was comfortable with and see some abs which she knew how to do but just needed the incentive) and I’d choose mine (to reach 79kg from 82-83kg at the start) and by the end of the comp if we both “won” we’d go for dinner together. But if one of us didn’t reach our goal, we’d have to pay for the whole meal! Oh and she insisted that the meal be a carby meal, which I was prepared to accept!

We pushed out the expiration date by about 5-6 weeks but I reached my goal and I think she reached hers despite an injury.

I find these kinds of incentives keep me accountable.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #13

Yeah fair call. It’ll be interesting to see how my body responds over the next few months.

After I reach my goal weight of 74kg I’ve been planning to implement Tim Ferris’s “Occam’s Protocol” – basically a methodology of minimal effective dose weight training in order to most efficiently build muscle. I find training at gyms a bit boring and unrewarding, so it’ll be interesting to give this a try. I may even start before I reach goal weight :wink:


#14

I hate those people :disappointed:


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #15

So I was going to start a new topic but this is really the same problem as I posted about above (I’m the OP): I’ve plateaued and I’m doing “everything” right.

I got down to 78.5-79kg but, as you can see, my weight has steadily crept up over the past couple of weeks. And it’s not muscle! :confused:

image

So I’ve been listening to Peter Attia’s second appearance on Tim Ferris’s podcast, and I re-read the Atkins Induction section of “The New Atkins for a New You” (aka the ketogenic section) as well as pages 128-129 of Atkins which talks about plateauing. Both of these sources suggest that ad libitum ketogenic:
(a) may not be suitable long-term for all people (Attia)
(b) may not be sufficient for weight loss if you’ve hit a plateau (Phinney/Westman/Volek)

My diet recently has been good, except in the last couple of weeks there have been more nuts (macadamias, yum!) especially almond flour (fathead pizza is a gateway drug for me, that much we know) and I’ve allowed myself to have some alcohol here and there. Cheese has also crept in more and more – far beyond the 4 ounces allowed by, well, pretty much every ketogenic diet outline I’ve ever seen (Taubes, Atkins.)

I think the solution is:

  • Temporarily limit cheese
  • Temporarily cut out all nuts and seeds
  • Temporarily cut out all alcohol
  • Temporarily limit/cut out 100% dark chocolate
  • Try some longer intermittent fasts
  • Add some cardio
  • Really focus on eating only till satiety

As I said, these last few pounds, down to my goal weight of 74kg (which even then will still almost certainly be a sub-optimal percentage of lean body mass) will be a challenge. But these, I think, are my first steps. It’s taking longer than expected!

I’ve also added berberine (starting yesterday). Anyone have any experience with that?

What do you guys think? Have any additions or other thoughts? What else could I be doing wrong?


(Adam Kirby) #16

I completely agree that ad-lib keto may not be sufficient to lose fat. My advice for cutting is carnivore diet. You’re almost there with your other proposed restrictions, just go whole hog and get rid of dairy/plants/nuts/etc for a while. Also I don’t think your average weight has fluctuated much, not sure it’s evidence of fat gain. One meal a day would be great if you can handle it.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #17

Um this is not good. I’m up a pound literally overnight. My body is rebelling

(The following table is in kilos)

image


#18

I would take a deep breath, your weight will fluctuate. Contrary to much of the commentary here, calories do matter. You say you’re eating a lot of nuts, cheese and fathead pizza, extremely calorie dense foods that are likely the reason you’re not losing. Hormones matter and when regulated help weight loss but it usually has diminishing returns once you reach the point at which ad libitum = maintenance.


(Allie) #19

Always fluctuations. Chill and let the process work.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #20

I hear you guys. It’s just that the trend for the last two weeks has been exclusively upwards. I fear if I don’t be more careful (especially about not eating past satiety) the trend will continue.

Ughhhh I thought I was so on top of this thing until now!