CICO thinking is that any exercise should burn more fat.
Hormone control thinking is that going from little or no exercise and jumping up to the larger workload described above - might actually be the stress that is holding on to the fat (i.e. body is thinking “If you are going to work like this all of the time, I’m going to hold on to more energy.”).
The only way to know what is happening is to get a body fat scam, like DEXA. You could be gaining muscle, nothing changes externally.
Try having just the coffee without the breakfast, that is intermittent fasting. Skip the snack, eat your food at your meals. Don’t over exercise, you really only need light exercise.
Good luck sorting it out.
Typically weight loss is faster without exercise because 20 to 30% of the weight lost can be muscle. Exercise retains muscle and increases appetite which if indulged might slow fat loss. If you exercise enough you may even gain muscle which will further stymie weight loss. But that is good, what is bad is focusing on weight loss.
If one wants to lose fat, tracking fat loss is better. A tape measure around the waist is the simplest approach though with additional measurements such as around the neck one can get a little more accuracy. You can find online calculators that will allow you to convert your measurements into a body fat % estimation. Skin fold calipers can give more accuracy if you take care to consistently measure in the same spots. A dexa scan can give a great baseline against which to adjust the results of whatever methods and calculators you use to track body fat on a more frequent schedule.
Maintaining or building muscle helps sustain a higher metabolism which in the long run is helpful for sustaining fat loss or at least not rebounding. Some get into trouble with very fast weight loss when they lose muscle. If/when their will power drops the lowered metabolic rate makes it easy to regain the lost fat.
My remarks were based on Dr Jeff Volek’s research, in particular the study where they had 4 groups of people:
Group A - CICO the plain old Calories In vs Calories Out “calorie restriction” diet - lost the least.
Group B and C - lost about equal amounts.
Group D - keto_+exercise_ lost the most fat. And it was fat not muscle, bone or organ tissue.
** A lot of research has been conducted on keto in a sports or performance context, that is where Phinney and Volek started. As did Drs Tim Noakes and Peter Atia. So these aren’t just notions which sound good (or bad). They are well tested findings (often on themselves).
Granted, if somebody is very heavy, the advice is do not exercise until you lose some weight and it becomes less dangourous. Then exercise can bring benefits (without injury), but I’ve never read any research where the exercise is the cause of stress.
My remarks were based on Dr Jeff Volek’s research, in particular the study where they had 4 groups of people:
- A. CICO diet only,
- B. CICO+exercise,
- C. KETO,
- D. KETO+exercise!
Group A - CICO the plain old Calories In vs Calories Out “calorie restriction” diet - lost the least.
Group B and C - lost about equal amounts.
Group D - keto_+exercise_ lost the most fat. And it was fat not muscle, bone or organ tissue.
The challenge with a lot of these studies is that they use college students, and or overweight individuals who have previously remained stable in their obesity. These sorts of studies also tend to span just 8-12 weeks. There aren’t many studies of middle aged individuals with 6 months of strict keto, modest calorie restriction, who have lost 50 lbs, and who are experiencing a stall with the introduction of exercise. Actually there are none. It’s the realm of n=1.
Given the choice between the n=1 of three actual individuals on the forum who have followed strict keto for 6 months, have lost 50lbs of the 100 they’re trying to lose, and have experienced a stall after introducing exercise vs. a double blind clinical study of a dozen 18 year old males with who lost 1.5kg in 8 weeks, I tend to place more weight on the n=1 accounts.
That said, I think there is a lot to be said for doing our own n=1 with a bit of hard data. Personally, I’m using all the money I’ve saved not eating very much this year and spending it on a DEXA and indirect calorimetry RMR. My appointment if Feb 5th. I’m picking a strategy of strict keto, weekly 85hr extended fasts & 15 minute weekly Body by Science workouts for the next the months. In 3 months, I’ll get a new RMR and a new DEXA, and then I’ll know if what I was doing was useful or counterproductive. I guess in the long run, I was going to spend $1,000/yr on diabetes care; now I’m just reallocating that money to DEXA and RMR tracking. 
Granted n=1 is why I visit this forum otherwise I will simply reread:
“The Art and Science of low Carbohydrate Living” by Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney
If it isn’t the “Bible” of the keto diet then I’d like to know what is?
Dr Stephen Phinney started as n=1, as did Prof Tim Noakes and Peter Ataia.
It seems to me doctors do their best work when they work on themselves (family or friends).
I would’ve thought the quality of their research is several notches above the type you described. Still it has been Said “the science of the ketogenic diet is still in toddlerhood so clearly we still all have much to learn.
There isn’t one, really.
Different researchers bring different things to this space, but putting people on pedestals is one of the real issues with this forum, as is not keeping up with current research.
If you know of more current research on the topic of keto/with_no_exercise versus keto+exercise can you please provide the references.
Thank you.
Exercise will impact untrained individuals differently - cortisol levels for example are higher than in trained individuals. This can lead to stalls & even gains. It’s better to slowly build a level of fitness before undertaking a strenuous exercise program.
I then replied
Juice, can you please provide the references you are referring to.
Both my parents are type II diabetics (probably “type III” as well) and are struggling to manage it with diet changes, they can’t believe after 80 years suddenly wheat is no good for them. But I can easily get them to do lots of garden work (exercise).
I was relying on research by Volek et al. which found keto+exercise was better than keto alone for weight loss but more importantly also for the management of metabolic syndrome in general.
Looking forward to your references.
Thanks.
Thanks for the reply safi. Can I please have the references to this information. It sounds very interesting.
Wow, great conversation here, but surprised to not see people mentioning extended fasting as a solution. Tweaking macros and label hunting just seems harder than not eating for a stretch.
After doing four, 48-72 hour fasts, it just seems like the obvious missing ingredient for me – and I am only 4 months into eating Keto.
Before Keto I would have never considered fasting. Even two months in, I could not consider intermittent fasting let alone a long extended fast.
I thought of water fasts as something extreme or punishing. However I feel a fast is what the body is asking for when there is a “stall”.
The benefits of autophagy are amazing – and fasting just semi regularly has already changed my relationship with food.
My stomach has shrunk. To me It’s like gastric bybass without the operation. My stomach could expand if I eat alot, but the new set point is smaller, much smaller than before.
Fourth post in the thread. Fifth post in thread. Eighth post in thread OP says does EF.
You made an extended post about it over two weeks ago.
Think that’s mentioning it.