Square one

(Joey) #62

Yeah, one of the fundamental tenets of science is you have to control one variable at a time holding all else equal (ceterus paribus). And you need to run experiments to their well-conceived terminal exit points to ensure you’ve captured the extent of any effect - expected or unexpected.

In truth, you cannot perform self-science this way. There are simply far too many other variables out of your control (stress, sleep, travel, illness, …), including the lingering or delayed effects of what you’ve done prior to the change you’re exploring.

But to the extent you can refrain from making too many changes all at the same time, you lower the difficulties put on your body to make adaptations dealing in response to too many inter-related variables wobbling around at the same time.

[Disclaimer: I rarely follow this advice. I tend to mess with a whole bunch of things at once and try to figure out what sticks. Since my “terminal exit” point is death, I don’t feel I have time to waste. :crazy_face:]

#63

It sounds the right thing to do to me when we have many items on our diet… We just can’t do it one by one… Okay, strict carnivore does it in one go… I am in between. I tend to change a lot. Not immediately but almost, I swapped my nuts and vegs and fruits and sweeteners to meat. And once (when I went low-carb) I just stopped eating a bunch of food groups from one day to another. I don’t know which change caused certain things but it’s good enough for me. And I have nice educated and who knows how true hypotheses… As I don’t want to add back things or just very selectively or carefully, I don’t care about the full (and no time to figure out and I keep changing anyway) truth.

But changing one thing makes sense. It’s just not always realistic or needed.

(Allie) #64

Likewise.

#65

It’s very familiar… If you are like me, less than 2000 kcal cut into too many pieces just won’t be good enough. And if my body wants way more for just one day, I give it way more. If I stick to a good woe and even my timing isn’t off, things eventually go into the right direction.

If you know you need more meat, buy more meat. It took me a lot of time to change something in my mind (I ate close to no meat in the more than 2 decades before carnivore) but now I don’t lack meat ever now. I know things easily go wrong then. My huge optimist has its place but not when planning my lower-meat days. Even if I would eat more than tiny amount of plants, they hardly would help with satiation (I guess the high-protein, very low-carb ones could but let’s face it, it’s a very, very tiny subset). So I had to learn I should keep my good items available all the time, in big enough amounts. And I do that now and I have less problems (it’s day #5 again but I am hopeful. and things tend to go wrong when I don’t have enough meat anyway. and it’s not always because I am really bored of it).

(Robin) #66

What a great ending line!

#67

One of my goals is to be able to fast. Right now, it’s impossible. I get too hungry and uncomfortable. Also, my attempts to reach even 24 hours (OMAD) have resulted in weight gain, because I feel so hungry afterwards that I compensate by eating even more over the next few days. I’m trying to figure this out, because fasting is the last strategy I have not tried to control my joint pain (which in all honesty is a more serious issue than my ten pounds of extra weight that no one else seems to notice…)

In answer to your other questions, I don’t use artificial sweeteners or keto products. I have always cooked my own meals, using fresh and unprocessed ingredients – even before keto. I was raised to understand that sugar is harmful (since the 1970s), and have never consumed sugary drinks, desserts or related products on any regular basis.

I do snack. Not a lot and only when my hunger between meals is unbearable. I’m caught between a rock and a hard place, because I get hungry even when my daily caloric intake is up at around 2000, which is too much for my metabolism to adapt to without putting on weight. I’ve been trying to keep net carbs below 20, and according to my keto-mojo, I am in ketosis. Two years ago, my results were good, and I even felt satiety frequently, but slowly everything has returned to – as I put it – square one.

I’m currently searching for meal composition ideas that provide more satiety over longer periods. What seems to not provide satiety is eating a meal that does not have variety. For example, I ate a ribeye steak for dinner last night, covered in butter, but I did not feel satiety afterwards. I think some vegetables alongside might have helped. As has been said ad infinitum here, we are all so different!

(Joey) #68

I’ll offer up a suggestion made earlier in this thread…

Dr. Ted Naiman’s “P:E Diet” pdf book is full of info that’s directly on point with the particular struggles you’ve described. It’s likely to give you meaningful, actionable guidance in dealing with hunger, fine tuning your menu choices, and losing those remaining stubborn pounds that are bugging you.

[Disclosure: I’ve got no financial interest in Dr. Naiman’s book sales]

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #69

What are you snacking on? If it’s protein and fat, it is probably fine, but I’ve learned from these forums that needing to snack means I’m not eating enough at mealtime.

Moreover, is the “weight” you are putting on, fat weight or lean weight? I ask, because it is possible to add lean mass while simultaneously shedding fat mass. If your bones are getting stronger, and your muscles are growing, is that really a problem? Even if it pushes up the number on your scale? If your clothes are getting looser, even though the scale is not registering a drop in weight, is that a problem?
As @Aqua_chonk likes to ask, would you prefer to lose those ten pounds and still look overweight, or stay the same weight and look as though you’ve lost ten pounds? Many people on these forums have reported that their fat loss didn’t start until they began eating more, not less.

I’m also wondering whether, regardless of the calorie number of your intake, your body might not need that extra food right now. In one early study of subjects on an ad libitum ketogenic diet, one of the participants spontaneously ate 3000 calories a day, and yet he lost as much fat and at the same rate as the other participants. I know that my appetite on keto was enormous, the first few weeks; I was eating as much food as I had been while on my high-carb diet. That changed eventually, and my appetite dropped noticeably. Then the pounds started coming off. So I figured that I must have needed all that food at first, for whatever reason. After a year on keto, I suddenly stopped wanting three meals a day; nowadays, I eat twice, and sometimes only once, a day. Every once in a while, though, I will get hungry before noon, so I listen to my body and give it what it wants. I’ve been cycling within the same ten-pound (4.5 kg) range since December 2017, regardless of my appetite, so my body must know what it is doing.

#70

Thanks. I tend to not like diet books, unless I know and respect the author as being science-based (like Gary Taubes), but I will look into this.

Cheese is a big one, but I’m trying to limit that. Pepperoni, too. After a year of no peanut butter, I’ve been trying a couple of spoonfuls at work to tide me over until I get home for dinner. It sort of works.

As for fat vs lean weight, unfortunately, my clothes are feeling a bit tight and uncomfortable so does not seem to be lean.

(Joey) #71

Totally agree. I have no diet books in my reading collection.

The word “diet” in the Naiman’s title is a poor choice; he covers macronutrient concepts and their associated metabolic consequences without a specific menu plan, i.e., “roll your own.”

He’s been interviewed a lot so perhaps just catch him speaking on YouTube and get the gist.

FWIW, I’ve been eating keto for 2+ years after reading the available research extensively. I’d never heard of Naiman until recently. But since he summarizes things succinctly (cartoon graphics) it’s the kind of material my family & friends might even read, having grown sick of me talking about this stuff. :wink:

Best wishes!

(Stickin' with mammoth) #72

I’m gonna need to start asking for royalties on this one.

(Mark Rhodes) #73

There are some great responses to your answers to my questions which means we all pretty much saw the same thing.

Net carbs is devil talk. Only use total.

There is no snacking on keto. Your insulin goes up. I dont care if its protein or fat. The response is less but it’s there & if you’re dysregulated it will be an issue.

That you cannot even OMAD suggests one or two things. First you cant access your body fat. This might be due to low BHB or it could be that you are functionally lean but still have body fat that is damaged. Read this page to see if this describes you

To @PaulL point…are your clothes looser? This is a sure indication of NSV. For me I take dexascans. To show you I stayed roughly the same weight, then went down then waaaaay back up. But it was mostly lean. When it wasnt there circumstances that explained it

Screenshot_20220312-141234_Gallery
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you can see I gained lots of weight but it was bone & lean…however I lift…a lot.

#74

Watching a youtube now. The gist is that I might need more protein. I will aim for 125 grams and see how that goes. Thanks!

(Joey) #75

Good to hear. Saved yourself about 300+ pages of reading (…although the book’s graphics are memorable). Onward!

[p.s. - I am definitely not trying to lose weight at this point (140 lbs at almost 5’10") … so for me, knowing that increasing protein at the expense of animal fats would lead me in that direction is a valuable insight.]

#76

If it is about decreasing postprandial blood glucose and insulin, I think there’s a very good case for a keto WOE. I don’t know anything else that works.

If it is for losing weight, the only way is cutting calories, on a keto diet, or not. And cutting calories is usually a bad idea, because it can potentially mess up with your metabolism. The exception is people whose weight can be explained by high insulin. They’ll lose at least part of it once their blood glucose and insulin are controlled by diet.

I’ve learned of myself, the new, (post?)menopausal me, that I can’t push for quick results like when I was younger. I need to be very patient.

I hope eventually your body finds a new balance point and that from then on you can slowly lose the weight you want to lose.

But in the name of being patient, try to learn to love yourself and adapt to the new version of you, the menopause one. Sometimes our problems are in our minds. We hang onto an idea that we should be like this, or that, look and feel in a certain way. The mental problem just makes us feel unhappy. 20 pounds shouldn’t have that power over us.

I’ve cut my hair short since menopause. I was having over 100 hot flushes a day! I kid you not. For years. I used to have very long, beautiful hair. I didn’t want to cut it, though the sweaty hair was killing me in agony. I’d cry in despair, all sweat and cold in winter. Because once the hot flush passes, you’re left soaked and cold.

Then… I cut my hair short. It saved my sanity. I don’t think it looks good, like my long hair used to. But I’m happy. I suffer less. I had to adapt to a new me that can’t support the long hair.

I’m rooting for you!