Square one

#1

Well, two years later, and my weight is exactly the same as when I began: 143 lbs (61 y.o. female, 5’2"). Maybe it was unrealistic, but I was hoping to get back to my 50 y.o. weight of 125. My body felt so fit and strong at that weight. Granted, a lot has happened since then (i.e., menopause…).

After 6 months of keto, my lowest weight was 133, and I was starting to feel good! But then the weight started to climb back up over the next 6 months, and this past year, I’ve been hovering up near 140, with recent gain up to 143.

I’ve been experimenting with healthy carbs the past 6 months because it felt like pure keto was not working anyway, so why not? I have no insulin resistance or metabolic damage, and carbs don’t cause me to binge, so I wasn’t worried about those things.

However, I rarely feel satiety. (Maybe there’s a connection between that and weight gain?) This was even before adding carbs. For a while, it felt like adding some carbs gave me enough satisfaction to keep me from overeating, but I don’t think so anymore.

I bought a keto-mojo last month. What I learned was that even after eating up to 100 g net carbs, I stay in ketosis. I never tested below 0.2 (and that was only on one occasion) regardless of what I ate. My usual level was 0.4. I also learned that my blood glucose rarely spikes, even after the one or two high sugar cheats I had during the time. The highest I measured was 156 after a piece of cake, and that was only once.

What to do? I’m wondering if I should buy more ketone strips and try to figure out what type of eating might keep my ketone levels in a much higher range (>0.6?). Would I see more success? I know the usual response is just keep carbs under 20, but maybe I would see better weight loss if I used other approaches, like restricted eating or some balance between slightly higher carbs/lower calories. I think I eat too many calories for my metabolism to keep up with, and it’s easy to go way beyond when I don’t pay attention to how much I eat of high fat foods.

Thoughts?

(Robin) #2

@Wendy198, first of all, darn it! I can imagine your frustration after so long. And I admire your commitment to sticking with it and figuring it out.
I’m sure our wiser souls on here will have some good insight for you. (@PaulL can start the ball rolling.) I believe they’ll want more details from you, like specific foods you eat. best of luck.
You got this!

#3

I can’t possibly know what would work for you but you mentioned eating too much and high-fat food… I personally should be careful with fat if I want to avoid overeating let alone if I want to lose fat… Certain fats (but even protein) satiate me poorly so it’s easy to overeat using them. But my timing matters a lot too but especially keeping my number of meals low. I just eat too much otherwise.
Maybe you should eat more protein for more satiation? Or just using different items?
What about your macros and what do you eat exactly on keto? Maybe someone will have more ideas knowing that info…

#4

Thanks! I believe in the science of low carb eating, so I don’t think that will ever change.

I would say my average net carbs these days are 60.

I almost always eat at least 100 g of fat, with heavy cream, butter, steak, peanut butter, eggs and mayo contributing most (according to Cronometer).

Protein varies 50-100 grams. Maybe I need to up that?

The carby foods I have been experimenting with are:
small banana
small orange
high-fat yogurt
fresh papaya
sweet potato
occasional square of regular sweetened (good quality) dark chocolate

It’s a great effort to keep my daily calories below 1800. I’ve tried fasting and time-restricted eating, but it’s been a huge failure. I am just too hungry. I end up snacking. Also, when I don’t eat for an extended time, my metabolic rate drops like sledge hammer. My fingers and toes turn to ice; my muscles get weak; and I can’t concentrate on my work. Funny, because in my 20s, I fasted. I know the euphoria feeling of being in a fasted state, and I wish I could experience it again.

(Marianne) #5

I know it’s difficult when you haven’t quite found the way of eating that works for you. My suggestions:

  • ditch the keto mojo or whatever you may be using to measure ketones
  • stop counting calories
  • keep your net carbs under 20g/day

The easiest way I found to keep my carbs low was to confine my vegetable consumption to dinnertime only. That was usually some steamed brussels sprouts with salt and added bacon grease, ghee or butter. Some days I’d have a small green salad with my lunch, too, using home made blue cheese dressing (HWC, blue cheese crumbles and spices, whipped together). I never ate fruit as the majority of fruit is too high in sugar (carbs), and one had the potential of exceeding 20g carbs per day.

Breakfast was always the same - eggs, bacon and sometimes a butter coffee. Lunch was leftover meat, cream cheese, egg/tuna/chicken salad with just a little mayo to wet, etc. Dinner was one vegetable in butter and a piece of pan seared pork, beef, or hamburger. Chicken would be legs or thighs, or some rotisserie chicken eaten over a couple of days for lunch or with another meat at dinner.

I’d get your macros and loosely track the fat/protein/carbs you eat in a day, until you get an idea of the foods and their values and the combinations you can make with them. Don’t track the calories. I wouldn’t be concerned about exceeding your fat and protein macros a little now and then. You should lose weight if your carbs are under 20 and you are eating sufficient fat.

That’s me. I hope you find a plan that works for you and is sustainable.

(Joey) #6

@Wendy198 Given that you have no apparent health issues other than wishing to lose weight, it would seem that lack of feeling satiated really is the core challenge for you to address.

Yes, you are likely eating more carbs than your post-menopausal ghrelin/leptin cycle can handle without triggering a resurgence of hunger.

Unless one has a genuine eating disorder (which you don’t report suffering from) then eating to that sense of satiety is the cornerstone to adopting an enjoyable, sustainable way of eating - and you deserve nothing less than to enjoy eating healthy food choices for your body.

If you haven’t already, I would encourage you to do all of the following:

  • cut out virtually all carbs except leafy green veggies as part of a dinner meal (as suggested above)
  • attempt to limit your feeding window to two meals a day to give your insulin and related hunger signals a chance to recalibrate accordingly
  • eat sufficient protein (an important part of reaching satiety) and fill the rest of your menu with healthy fat choices
  • get as much exercise (cardio + strength) as you can comfortably muster … not so much with an eye toward losing weight (since it’s not highly effective for weight loss), but in order to get the rest of your body’s metabolism/circulatory system functioning at its very best.
  • keep an eye on the need for proper sleep and stress management techniques, that is, if these have been issues for you.
  • along the way, stay well-hydrated with proper electrolytes to meet your body’s long term needs.

The good news: it sounds like you’re starting from a position of general solid good health. You ought to be able to tweak things to reach the modest weight loss goal you’ve set for yourself.

You might explore Ted Naiman’s “P:E Diet” pdf as he addresses the weight loss side of food choices in an easy-to-digest way :wink:

Best wishes and please keep us posted. :vulcan_salute:

#7

Not exactly. I also suffer from chronic, multi-joint pain. Low carb eating helps, but the difference between ketogenic and just low carb is not much, so I’m no longer trying to find dietary solutions to that problem.

I will try to revert back to under 20g net carbs, focusing on leafy greens, and see how that goes. Also, two meals a day I’m sure would help, so I will continue to aim for that. Thanks for the feedback!

(Robin) #8

I agree with everything @SomeGuy said… except I found it best to wait on the exercise until my body had fully settled into keto. You don’t really NEED exercise to lose weight on keto. But when you are ready, it’s smart to do enough to become strong.

(Joey) #9

Given this additional info (and @robintemplin’s comment above), I too would back off the idea of exercise beyond your comfort level. “No impact” routines are best to avoid exacerbating joint issues.

Having said that, carbs are notoriously inflammatory for many folks. If your joint pain is connected to inflammation, then reducing carbs certainly won’t hurt - even if it doesn’t provide a miracle cure.

FWIW, I had systemic creaky, achy joints (in my mid-60s) which I chalked up to age. Cutting out the carbs, every one of those pains are now in my past. I wish you success in pushing forward … but don’t push too hard in straining things!

(Juanita Rice) #10

Just a suggestion but, I count total carbs as my daily 20-grams or less carbs and could you tell me approximately how many net carbs equals 20 total carbs? I am just curious.

(Allie) #11

What’s your protein intake like?

(Alec) #12

Wendy
Some ideas:

  1. When you mentioned joint pain my thoughts went directly to the plants you are eating. I suggest you try carnivore for 30 days and see what happens. Plants contain many chemicals that can cause joint pain, and many carnivores have reported major improvements in this type of pain when removing the plants.
  2. You mention counting calories, lowering your metabolism, needing to snack, and you are rarely satiated. That sounds to me that you are not eating to satiety at your meals… you should eat as much at your meals to totally fill yourself up… it is a pretty important keto principle. Compromise on that, and the body can remain in starvation mode ie cling on to everything it’s got. If you are trying to second guess what your body needs, you are likely to get it wrong. It knows best, let it decide.
  3. How do you know you don’t have any insulin resistance or metabolic disease? Have you had some tests done that convince you of this? Your symptoms to me suggest that you have high insulin which is blocking your ability to burn your fat.
  4. There are a few foods you mention that could be problems for you:
    - mayo: are there seed oils in there? This stuff is poison, and inflammatory. You don’t want this.
    - dairy: a few people react badly to dairy in general. You could try going dairy free for a bit?
    - peanut butter: lots of things in there that could be causing issues, I would drop this for a while and see what happens.

If I were in your position I would be going harder into zero carb rather than the other way. But of course I declare a bias: I am a carnivore!

Take care and best of luck.
Cheers
Alec

#13

It’s easily possible that some items are bad for you, it was mentioned already.

But I can imagine your macros are wrong for you, they surely would be horrible for me. We aren’t the same but maybe some points are similar. I mention things not about macros too.

  1. I would starve on 50-100g protein and only 1800 kcal. I noticed several times that I personally need a high protein intake, way over my actual needs as far as I can tell. Unless we consider the need for enjoying my food and getting satiated without tons of fat. I even desire protein specifically on the nights when I had too little during the day.

  2. 1800 kcal with higher-carb (to me, yours is higher. but 40g net is too high for me as well, usually) can’t work for me. Carbs make me hungry (some easier than others but basically all are like this, at least plant ones. including vegetables in not small amounts). Maybe it’s a bit similar in your case or at least regarding certain carbs. Sugars probably don’t help the vast majority of people when we have satiation problem without eating way too little for our bodies.

  3. Type of fat may matter. Added fat doesn’t satiate me so I avoid it (low-protein dairy is the same). Certain very fatty items are way too easy to eat and overeating is easy using them.
    By the way, even proteins aren’t the same good. Too fatty protein triggers overeating in me and fowls don’t satiate me. Experimenting may be useful. I use tracking partially to figure these things out.

But sometimes we just need to eat more. If you are hungry, you should eat in my opinion… Even if you eat over your energy need for that day (I always had high-cal days, regularly. I still lost fat while having those until some point and still could do it if most of my days was right). If you choose your items well, your timing is right and your body works somewhat okay, you should avoid overeating even if you eat your fill. Losing fat may be trickier but I believe almost everyone has an easy enough method. Some of us need a long time to find it, though.

#14

CORRECT, CORRECT, CORRECT! Set up an acct with Cronometer, start tracking, and then you can adjust until you find your threshold. Then work from there. Doing it with your eyes closed is exactly that. You can also make it easy / cheat a little and just get your RMR measured so you’ll know right about where to start off.

Your ketone levels don’t matter, don’t waste your time with them.

(Joey) #15

I tried to interpret this advice and got lost. Can you please clarify what you are expecting the OP to actually do? …

Track everything? Find a threshold? Make it easy? Cheat a little? Measure RMR to know where to start off?

#16

I’m not sure, because I have Cronometer set to measure net carbs only. I guess no one knows for sure, but my hunch is that a little fiber is good for the microbiome.

I tried for 30 days but it didn’t work for me. I was never satisfied with my meals, and in the end, I could not say my joint pain was any different at the end of 30 days.

The keto-mojo! After testing for about 4 weeks, I could not believe that no matter what I ate, my blood sugar stayed pretty much in the 80s and 90s. Sometimes it went over 100 after meals, but not by much.

@Alecmcq I’ve read your carnivore posts, and I’m happy for you that the diet is working so well for you. But my attempts to be very restrictive have only led me to eat more than I can metabolize – because I’m never satisfied with my meals. In fact, I think that the past year of trying to restrict foods more and more have been part of the reason my weight has gone back up. I am eating more than I can metabolize. That said, I think everyone’s comments are right – that I need to get stricter with my net carbs.

#17

Ranges 50-100. I should probably strive for closer to 100, so I will try!

#18

I think I understand where @lfod14 is coming from. There’s probably a limit to which each person’s metabolism can burn fuel – whether sugar or fat. That would be their threshold. Above that, you gain weight. I’m just guessing mine is around 1800 calories. But @Shinita says she would starve on that! I would love to measure my RMR to know just how hot my metabolic fire burns. Probably not too hot – given how easily I feel cold… LOL

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #19

On a high-carb diet, this is not surprising. The elevated insulin that results blocks the leptin receptors in the ventromedial hypothalamus that are supposed to register the leptin from the fat tissue telling the brain that we have stored enough energy and don’t need to eat more food. The prevention of this leptin-blocking effect is one of the reasons we don’t have to go hungry while eating a ketogenic diet.

The leptin-blocking effect of insulin is a remnant of the mechanism that prepares animals to hibernate. It keeps them from stopping eating so that they will eat enough carbohydrate to put on fat for the winter. It’s also why, over the past couple of decades, the dietary advice has had to be changed from “three square meals a day” to “three big meals, plus snacks in between and a snack before bedtime” so that people can cope with the constant hunger of their high-carb diet.

If a ketogenic diet is not satisfying one’s hunger, there are a number of things to look at. The first would be to be sure to eat enough calories (the metabolism progressively slows as we progressively cut calories). Then the question is whether one is getting enough fat, especially saturated fat, which is particularly satisfying. Then, too, some people need more protein than they need fat, so for them the protein guidelines and the advice to “eat fat to satiety” need to be modified.

#20

Oh I wasn’t clear then. 1800 kcal is actually a good intake for me (not always, I need higher-cal days sometimes, no matter what), I can be satiated all day with it if I do everything right. I would starve (just the feeling, not really) with that much on the wrong diet. Like much added fat, less than 100-120g protein, too much carbs, much fowl meat…etc. I need the right sized eating window at the right time as well, most of the time.
Satiation is very individual and when one can’t eat little enough for their metabolism and goals, it’s useful to figure out what works and what doesn’t.