Some Fiber is Absorbed As Glucose? Westman v Rosedale

#22

I cannot comment on what Dr Westman writes or proposes. I can only state on what I have learned or observed about myself, testing different foods and method of preparation.

#23

Thanks everyone for your responses. Iā€™m going to dive into NCBI and see what it turns up. Thanks @skyraft, @Fiorella, @BillJay. I appreciate your thoughtful comments. This forum is awesome.

I suspect Iā€™m having a language barrier actually. Where what Westman means is:

ā€œSome fiber behaves like glucose in the bodyā€

whereas what he said is

ā€œSome fiber is absorbed as glucoseā€

Which is ambiguous, and I think I took him more literally than he intended.

Thanks again.

#24

Doesnā€™t seem like pectin is the culprit.

Pectin is known to slow down the activity of enzymes that break down starches and sugar. The absorption of carbohydrates and sugars is slowed down because of pectinā€™s fiber content; this helps prevent blood sugar spikes, which cause glucose intolerance, weight gain and diabetes.

#25

Doesnā€™t seem like cellulose is the culprit either:

In the human diet, cellulose provides fiber for the body even though the body itself cannot break the components of cellulose down. It helps in moving the small intestines when ingested and helps in defecation by being a bulking agent in feces.

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/words-language/difference-between-glucose-and-cellulose/

(mike lisanke) #26

This is a great question And I was going to ask my own when I found itā€¦ I just did a N=1 experiment to try and Add hydration through high fiber from Flax and Chia (both have carbohydrate mostly fiber; digestible and indigestible (unless ground; which I did)). So, I use about an once of each, where net carbs would be just a few grams but total carbs is up there! And what I experience was a lot of Insulin reaction!

So, I was going to ask if cephalic insulin response or other microbiota response could trigger the insulin response Iā€™ve been working to control for So Long. Or, if keto and IF had made me so insulin sensitive to any ingested carbohydrate including mostly fiber. From answers here, I still donā€™t know the answer But I did learn from you that Dr. Westman observed that the net carb calculation may be Flawed and some/most (dependent on what) fiber carbs may be absorbed as glucose Which will definitely Spike Insulin.

I now see this Question hasnā€™t been raised for many years. I think itā€™s time to ask this question again with a spinā€¦ will eating fiber plant foods which are most fiber spike insulinā€¦ whether they are absorbed as glucose or not.

If you read this resurrected question and think it should be a new question, I can work on that! Thanks as always to all who contribute response to my altered question here! Best regards, Mike

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #27

Sorry for the correction, but I suspect you meant ā€œsoluble and insoluble,ā€ since the very definition of ā€œfibreā€ in human nutrition is that it is indigestible. However, you mention grinding the fibre, and Iā€™m not sure how much benefit it confers when it is mechanically destroyed. A glass of apple juice, with the fibre destroyed, has a very different effect on the body from the equivalent number of whole apples with their fibre intact.

The cephalic insulin response is the result of expectations of incoming sugar. It can be triggered by a sweet taste (even if the sweetness comes from a non-sugar sweetener) or by merely thinking of food, especially sweet foods. The degree of that insulin response is a separate matter. In someone with normal insulin sensitivity, the amount of insulin secreted in response to any stimulus, whether it be a cephalic stimulus or actual food, is much lower than the amount secreted by someone who is insulin-resistant. The good news is that insulin-sensitivity can be restored; the bad new is that it doesnā€™t happen overnight.

As far as an insulin response to fibre is concerned, I donā€™t believe thatā€™s a thing. My understanding is that fibre, being indigestible, provokes no insulin response at all. Thatā€™s why many people on a ketogenic diet subtract the fibre they eat from their carbohydrate count and worry only about net (digestible) carbs.

Actually, Richard Morris, the site owner, prefers people to reactivate old threads over starting new ones. His idea is that he wants the Ketogenic Forums to be a reliable reference guide, and he feels itā€™s helpful to have all the information in one threadā€“easier to find that way.

The onle caveat is that most of the people who posted on this site seven years ago are no longer around, so please donā€™t be offended if they donā€™t reply!

(mike lisanke) #28

Paul,

Thanks for your reply; Iā€™m never offended by the lack of other peoplesā€™ response, people get busy and have their own lives!

Yes, I did mean soluble and insoluble.

I agree Fiber, being indigestible by humans, should Not be caloric or impact insulin Without the thoughtā€¦ But that appears Not to be the case with me.

Iā€™m going to investigate what Dr. Westman says about this in Keto Clarity and in his other writing. Iā€™m interested because I think keeping water in my intestine longer with Fiber would be a good thing to do.

Any idea if microbiota have an impact on Fiber digestion in humans? We all know itā€™s not the cow which makes milk from grass but her gut bacteria, right?

Thanks again for your response!

Best regards, Mike

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #29

The benefit is supposed to be that fibre gets turned into butyrate, which is supposed to be good for the intestinal lining. But Dr. Phinney holds the opinion that the ketone body Ī²-hydroxybutyrate is just as good for the intestine, if not better.

However, the intestinal bacteria also produce methane gas from what we cannot digest, which escapes the digestive tract either as belches or as flatus.

(Bob M) #30

I think Jimmy Moore wrote Keto Clarity. By the way, he advocated very high fat in that book, and Iā€™ve found lower fat, higher protein to be better.

(mike lisanke) #31

Thanks for the answers/helpful replies. BTW, I didnā€™t include and should haveā€¦ Iā€™m Experienced with Keto Diet and Intermittent (and longer) Fasting (IF) and have been trying various modifications to a normal base-line diet Iā€™ve been following for multiple years now. Iā€™m not averse to answering questions about what Iā€™ve accomplished But I tend much more often to ask questions about what others know about things Iā€™ll attempt or have already tried.

Bob M, I tend to think (like you) that I still need higher protein and less fatā€¦ But I also understand that humans have a nutrient requirement for fats (fatty acids) just like we need protein!

#32

True but itā€™s quite low. We eat much fat on keto because we need it as fuel. If not carbs, it must be fat, protein isnā€™t good for that role for various reasons.

#33

Iā€™ve searched for a couple days and finally found a good answer to your question. Or I should say I think itā€™s a good answer. I donā€™t know if you will continue to answer, but this doctor did a good review on why some fibers have a glucose response in the body and which fiber does not.

Are fibers truly ketogenic.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #34

I would tend to trust Ryan Lowery. He and his research partner have accumulated a lot of data on athletic performance, brain healing, and the effects of glucose, both good and bad, on high-level athletic performance. They are strong supporters of ketogenic eating.

(Joey) #35

Dr Zoe Harcombeā€™s classic presentation on this topic is always worth (re)watchingā€¦

https://youtu.be/4KrmpK_Lckg

(Doug) #36

Good article, but Iā€™d say it goes straight to what was posted 8 years ago:

so, is it digestible/do we make glucose out of it, or not?

(KM) #37

Iā€™d say the point of the article is that one prevalent additive to processed foods that get a low net carb score is isomaltooligosaccharide, ā€œIMOā€. Itā€™s not a true fiber, being mainly enzymatically digested in the small intestine.

" ā€¦ these IMO syrups, which often use a blend of di-and oligosaccharides, ultimately metabolize into small amounts of glucose and maltose [2] and thus should be viewed as a slow digesting carbohydrate rather than a true fiber."

Theyā€™re saying ā€œtrue fiberā€ is digested bacterially, fermented, in the large intestine. In the fermentation process any released sugar should be consumed by the bacteria, not us. So real fiber in real foods, soluble or insoluble, digested by bacteria in the large intestine, should have basically no impact on blood glucose levels.

I wonder, if a person has leaky gut, if that makes a difference. Fiber broken down by large intestine bacteria produces glucose which gets through the intestinal wall rather than being consumed by them, raising blood sugar ā€¦

(Doug) #38

Sounds good. :slightly_smiling_face::+1: And while I donā€™t know if there is a scientific consensus on it - I agree with the ā€œnot a true fiber,ā€ i.e. if itā€™s digested like that then it really just sounds like another carbohydrate.

(KM) #39

They compared it to steel cut oats in terms of where along the digestive tract it gets absorbed.

(Bob M) #40

I saw that about the steel cut oats. I have to say that none of that stuff ever made me full. No matter what oats I ate, I was hungry about 15 minutes later.

Things might be different now, but I canā€™t see trying it out. Compared to meat or eggs, steel cut oats just donā€™t have the same nutrition.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #41

That is precisely the question. ā€œFibreā€ is by definition indigestible, but Dr. Westman says that new research tends to suggest that the indigestibility of carbohydrates that were originally considered types of fibre has now been called into question. It will be interesting to see how the research shakes out.

Fibre, like all other carbohydrates, is nothing but glucose molecules arranged in various ways, so if certain fibres, or fibre in general, turns out to be digestible to any degree, then there will be consequences for our serum glucose level. It will be interesting to see whether the term ā€œfibreā€ will have to be abandoned.