Sleep Apnea: Keto versus Devices

sleepapnea
(Ben) #11

I posted this on another thread:

I’ve had a CPAP machine for 17 years, and although I never grew to love it, I did get to appreciate its effectiveness. On the odd occasions when I’d fall asleep before I put it on I’d really notice the difference the following day. My uvula would feel like it had been 10 rounds with Mike Tyson and I’d feel tired and terrible all day.

In June last year,(I’d been keto for 3 months and had lost 30lbs by then) I got hit in the face by the ball playing cricket. And for a couple of weeks my nose area was too sore to wear the mask. After the first night without CPAP I asked my girlfriend how bad my snoring was and she said I hadn’t snored. And my uvula felt fine. I was astonished.
And during that fortnight I didn’t feel tired and terrible, so I never went back to wearing the mask.

I set my phone to do a timelapse video of my sleeping during the night a few times and they showed I was having very restful sleep.

So I asked to be re-tested by my lung function unit and the test showed the same - very few apnoeas and only when I’m on my back, which isn’ t often.

I went in to discuss the results and they agreed I could leave the CPAP machine with them. Living without it is marvellous and it’s a fantastic incentive to keep on ketoing on.

(Dustin Cade) #12

I have a Samsung Gear fit 2 watch, if you wear it whilst sleeping it will monitor your sleep, if I fall asleep on the couch on somewhat sitting up it will show the same % as if I’m sleeping on my side in bed with my mask… I really do sleep so much better with it…

(Wayne Godfrey) #13

I’m not a doctor; don’t play one on TV; and didn’t sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so take this for what it’s worth. :slight_smile:

There are many different causes for sleep apnea (weight, structural, neurological, etc.) and weight is only one of them. I developed sleep apnea before becoming significantly overweight. Gaining weight made it worse, and losing the weight after starting Keto made it better, but it’s never going to go away for me because of weight loss.

Follow your doctor’s advice.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #14

After only a few months of keto and very little weight loss, the breathing problems I encountered laying on my back at night went away. So, either all the weight loss occurred in my neck (my pants disagree) or there are contingent factors at play. Either way, happy.

(Lee Jones) #15

I was diagnosed with severe obstructive sleep apnoea (86 events per hour) about 18 months ago but I refused to go the Cpap route as I knew I could never take to the machine. Since finding Keto there’s now over 50 pounds less of me and my wife no longer nags that my snoring keeps her awake. Been checking my BP this week as per my Dr’s instructions and have found my readings are way too high so I may book in for another sleep study and see if the Apnoea is still a problem.

Crazy thing is is that when I was at my worst with it my blood pressure was in the normal range :persevere:

(Meeping up the Science!) #16

There are many skinny people with sleep apnea. There’s a number of children misdiagnosed with behavioral disorders and ADHD who have it due to the way their throat is structured - most normal weight. The lack of sleep causes the behavior they manifest.

So, it really depends on the cause of the apnea.

Often doctors encourage patients to lose weight. Many of us who are obese were told countless times to lose weight - it is, as we all know, not necessarily easy the conventional way.

My GPs for the past several years have had bariatric training so they do look at fasting glucose or insulin. Someone morbidly obese should see GPs, preferably good ones obviously, who are trained in such matters. Sadly, I do not believe most people understand shopping for doctors to start with, and many, at least here in America, cannot choose their GPs easily.

It always falls on us to be educated consumers. And, don’t doubt that as a patient you are seen as a consumer first and a patient second - healthcare is all about the business.

Having said all that, absolutely we must treat the causes. Obesity is complex, though, and diet is not often the only cause. More frequently it’s behavior, and physicians are not always trained to treat maladaptive behavior.

(Jamie Hayes) #17

Here’s a very interesting podcast episode that those with sleep apnea may value. It’s an interview with dentist/author Mark Buhenne about mouth taping each night. Here’s the link Check out this cool episode: https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/high-intensity-health-radio/id910048041?mt=2&i=1000381229284

(Todd Allen) #18

Having a deviated septum surgically corrected allowing me to breath through my nose significantly improved my sleep apnea. A few months dieting transitioning from HCLF to LCHF to keto and i’m sleeping great

(Tom) #19

I used to work in a sleep lab, as well as having sleep apnea treated by a CPAP. While OSA is often a weight issue, sometimes it’s a facial and pharyngeal dimensional issue. To wit, I saw several old farmers and ranchers while working in sleep lab who were the cliche of a skinny old cowboy, yet had severe OSA. And, I’ve even seen cases in which a person loses a ton of weight and ends up with worse apnea, which I hypothesize was d/t some of the fat around the neck actually helping stent the airway open. Consequently, I usually urged my patients to shoot for weight loss, but under no circumstances should they quit using the cpap without seeing their doc for a re-evaluation of their apnea and/or adjusting the pressures of the machine. Improved apnea is still apnea, and it’s still associated w/ an increased risk of stroke or MI.

(mezz_2000) #20

I have had several patients come in for sleep apnoea reviews with mouth taping as treatment. All I can say is that if anyone is going to go down this path as a treatment option please get a review study done to see how effectively it is treating your OSA as the studies I’ve looked at have had very little if any improvement from mouth taping.

(Amanda Jakositz) #21

You are totally correct! I work in sleep medicine and being overweight is only one of many reasons people have OSA/CSA. As someone said, check in with your provider and see if you are ready to get off your PAP once you have lost wt. I have had several patients who look amazing after weight loss and still have OSA :frowning:

(Lee) #22

I’m new to this subject as I just started my BIPAP machine. However, I find it fascinating as I am studying the neuroscience of the influence of ketones on the brain at the same time… Coincidence?

That aside, there are two types of apnea, Obstructive, which is the most common, especially for those who are overweight, and Central which is caused by a deficiency in nerve impulses in the brain stem. I have both. Thus I am being closely monitored for possible switch to an ASV machine. CPAP and BIPAP machines have minimal influence on Central Apnea!

Thin people usually are prone to central apnea.My father had central apnea and never weighed over 115 pounds his entire life at 5 ft 11 inches tall. He was a bean pole.

(VLC.MD) #23

Which won’t happen because Oprah has a big share in Weight Watchers.

#24

It is known factor that neck fat is key to obstructive sleep apnea, all docs should and most do tell patients that. And maybe suggest keto cure. I have central sleep apnea (recurring after maybe 9 months without it). Got rid of it with prayer and anthocyanins. Came back after broke keto as like cherries in summer. Will write more complete explanation as new post.

Ah see it ends up and bottom anyway. So here goes in edit mode:

There is obstructive apnea and central. Almost all posts above seem to be about obstructive. Keto is natural solution and my neck fat has pretty much disappeared with 30 pound (220 to 190lbs) loss for 6’1" male. I had minor obstructive and do use dental thing as prevents sore throat. However the big problem is Central Apnea fore me, the brain forgetting to breathe.

Central came back after 9 months, and have been on keto for about 10 months, hmm. Had already mostly whipped it thru prayer and anthocyanins, black rice before keto, Aronia extract after keto (Aronia has highest levels of it). Anthos might be best things you can put in body, curative for most serious health problems, Here is starting point on medical reports https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082894/

Keto is known to cure epilepsy for 80 years now, and to be protective of brain in general. Dr. Vox of silicon valley (MD) has told me it may be best thing to prevent alzheimer’s. You can contact him, rather famous as runs for congress on top of being MD.

OK after central came back, made the connection to Keto and found this discussion board today. So will share what know. Found the Anthocyanin connection thru doing 500 or so sleep studies with recording pulse oximeter and logging what was eating and found black rice connection, they are black because of anthocyanins(they are dyes).

Did no make the keto connection till this week. I have not gain weight but am out of keto as have eaten peaches, cherries and watermelon this summer, so maybe out for last 6 weeks. Have not gained weight, still low carb. So only thing to do is go back in keto and see what happens to central sleep apnea. Being Keto has brain effect, it makes sense, central apnea is same as crib death, brain just forgets to breathe. I have been about 8 mins below 88% last two nites.

Had not used oximeter for 6 months

If keto ends this, big news IMHO and glad to share it.

#25

Lee see you have central, thanks for comment, just posted on same thread about it, guessing same as you ketones may have effect.

#26

UPDATE: so far encouraging. First I have Central (Brain) Apnea not obstructive.

So was 8mins < 88% for two nites, since then went back on keto, but body is not yet back in keto,
1st nite 2.8mins < 88%
2nd (today) 2.0mins < 88% and feel better.

How recehecked via recording pulse oximeter https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B8L8ZXE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

was that felt sleepy during day and sure enough apnea had returned after months without it. And was in keto during good period, made the connection and decided to test.

This is encouraging about 70% reduction in CSA so far with small sample just eating keto not being in it yet, will see what happens after body goes into keto again.

BTW have a fitbit too, and it does pick up the apnea half decently, much less info than the oximeter above that produces a detailed report and min by min levels, but the tiny red “awake” slivers in fitbit tend to line up with oximeter report <88% spikes. Plus fitbit tells you sleep stages, so both together are nice.

#27

Glad to find this discussion! I have been (back) on keto for a month, lost ~30 lbs altogether and was optimistic, but test came back severe apnea (>80/hr), half of it central. Specialist says CPAP will help obstructive part, but may also help with central, as well as speed up weight lose and help my congestive heart failure too! I’m hopeful… I feel better with weight loss but still no energy… Device should arrive in next couple of weeks—fingers crossed! Happy to not feel so alone, thanks!

#28

Jean, CPAP does help CSA, but ASV (auto servo ventilator) is considered more needed for CSA. Had one and could not sleep with it. But being you have OSA too it will solve OSA.

One other thing helped me, anthocyanins. They are in blueberries, cherries, purple eggplant, etc. Its the dye itself. Super healthy thing maybe most healthful thing you can put in your body.

There is no literature on this, I discovered it from 500 sleep studies I did and correlation to diet.

To avoid sugar and get much more of them, use this https://www.ebay.com/itm/Aronia-Berry-4-1-Extract-1-lb-or-16-oz-Free-Shipping-/301979695470 Aronia has the highest levels of Anthocyanins, I use 1-2 tsp a day.

Best of luck, Darp

#29

OK have been in Keto 2 more days (about 3.0) and my sleep studies have been good but not perfect. 2.0 mins one day, 2.1 mins the other <88%oxi. That is officially not apnea.

So it appears that being in keto does mostly solve Central Sleep Apnea for me. It has dropped from 8 mins to 2 mins after getting back into keto. It makes sense, keto mostly cures epilepsy and that has been known for 80 years, it is standard therapy. CSA is also a brain issue. It seems at least on me to mostly be a cure. This is possibly a major discovery. Anyone else notice a difference?

Also BTW forgot to take Anthocyanins yesterday but still got a good result.

#30

Update I see it has been longer than thought when last posted, the last 4 days are: 2.4mins, 1.1mins, 2.0, 2.1 (<88%oxi) with last day no Aronia. It was 8 mins before Keto and I felt very tired during the day, now do not.