Should carnivore be the starting point?

(Chris) #102

Check out the citations in the wikipedia link @RobC posted above. There were 5 links included after the sentence he found that they included plants in the diet. 2 of them are to a book which interviews an elder.

You can also check out the book Fat of the Land written by an arctic explorer back in the 20s/30s.

Furthermore, in another part of the globe. There’s the Okinawans. The major studies plant-based people will push were done in 1949, after we killed half their population and reduced their 6 figure pig agriculture down to 10% of itself during the war. The Okinawans enjoyed long life because they ate meat, and after the war they were relegated to much more rice and seaweed in the diet.

Edit: 6 figures meaning they had over a hundred thousand pigs on the tiny island at any given time prior to WW2.

And lastly I apologize for my comment “you should read more”. That was uncalled for, and I regret and deleted it.

(Robert C) #103

I guess I worded that incorrectly.

The way I wrote it, it sounds like I am saying check for the symptom - having too much iron.
What I really meant was check your genes to see if you have hereditary hemochromatosis.
If you have the hereditary hemochromatosis genes, you might want to be careful about any iron intake.

Per the linked page - symptoms show up for men in their 50’s and 60’s and women after their 60’s (well after menopause - before that they have a great iron unloading mechanism). So, looking around for people having iron problems due to Carnivore will be a long term undertaking.

The page below seems to differentiate between hereditary hemochromatosis (genes) and “iron overload” (dietary intake of too much iron).

Still, it is the case that even if you don’t have hereditary hemochromatosis, you can develop the situation where you have too much iron in your blood if you take in lots of iron and are simply a good absorber and and bad eliminator of iron.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hemochromatosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20351443

(Robert C) #104

In fact it is the opposite - I am eager to try it.
I have done it for a few one-off days but I am hoping that I feel a big difference in the multi-week time frame.
I think just a month the first time - and then get blood tested.

The issue I have is that I have iron overload. According to 23andme, I do not have hereditary hemochromatosis. Instead, it seems that I am simply a good absorber or bad eliminator (or both) of iron.

My current concern is that it seems the best idea for me is to have calcium with the meat (especially beef) because it does the best job of slowing iron absorption. So, a glass of raw milk with the meal and drop some sour cream and or a calcium rich cheese into the simmering ground meat or top the steak with blue cheese. I am wondering if taking in so much dairy at every meal is going to mitigate the positive responses I am hoping for - or even become a problem.

Oddly :grinning: there does not seem to be a lot of detail on the internet about people with iron overload wanting to eat red meat.

So, I feel that before I start, I need to get my ducks in a row (which includes lots of back and forth on this site - it is enlightening so Thanks All!).

(Chris) #105

Pink salt is high in iron, probably correlated with the rust in it :). If one has iron issues they should avoid it. There’s really no benefit over sea salt or Real salt or any of the other ancient saltbed salts, aside from that and taste.

(Bunny) #106

:joy::rofl::joy::rofl::joy::rofl::joy::joy::rofl:

(Robert C) #107

Thanks @Dread1840 for pointing that out - I learned another thing today!
I went to confirm this and discovered it that the iron in pink salt is non-heme, which is less absorbable.

But, then I wondered how much less?

Then I found the page linked below (looks fairly reputable).

According to the page, heme iron absorbs at a 20% to 30% rate and non-heme at a 5% to 12% (for people without hereditary hemochromatosis - otherwise the percentages go way up). I would think (although I have no proof of this at all) that the non-heme iron in pink salt diluted in water for a fasting drink would be closer to the 12% level - it just seems like it would be much more absorbable that way versus in a food. Yet another thing to factor in, I’ve been using pink salt just because it seemed healthier.

(Chris) #108

Definitely, thanks for the info. Other than the iron content- there’s really not much else nutritional benefit over sea salts, such as “extra minerals” and other electrolytes. They’re all pretty even across the board and usually unless someone has hemato, just go by taste. :smiley:

#109

Pre-Contact. It’s pretty well established that just about any Native population was very healthy (what killed them usually wasn’t their diet) compared to the European colonizers, who then forced them to change their diets in their quest to “civilize” them/enact mass genocide.

#110

Also, you don’t have to check your blood for iron overload. Our bodies have an actual warning system for too much iron – extreme nausea. I know this because I knew a bulimic who took iron pills to purge.

(Robert C) #111

Also pre-contact for non-dietary reasons - European colonizers brought along a lot of deadly (to the native populations) diseases (which will lower the averages a bit).

(Chris) #112

One also has to ponder whether the change in diet might have changed the susceptibility to disease. Extremely speculative on my part, but an anecdote, if you’d indulge me.

Prior to changing to carnivore, any cold, flu or really any sickness would last for a long time. For colds, usually months.

Now? Since July of 2017 I’ve been sick with a cold for a total of 10 days across 4 occurrences. And it’s milder. Really fascinating.

That’s not to say, that I think they’d be free of disease with their native diet, it’s possible they had no exposure to the particular bugs and therefore had no antibodies built up, whereas I’ve had the common cold countless times. Just another avenue to consider.

(Robert C) #113

The page linked below has many symptoms but, nausea is not on the list.

I have a feeling your friend’s nausea was from how the (likely potent) pills absorbed through the stomach lining or due to the actual bulimia.

Many of the symptoms listed could be due to something else so, knowing your iron status through actual blood-work is the only way to be sure.

(Karim Wassef) #114

I think reducing chronic inflammation in general boosts the ability of the immune system to fight off pathogenic or cancerous cells.

Keto does this by reducing carbs that drive oxidative stress and increasing safer ketones from fats. But avoiding seed oils reduces inflammation. Consuming less fibrous veggies or dairy also reduces digestive stress for some people. I think each person needs to go through that journey to understand what is driving their chronic inflammation and stop doing those things.

If eating meat for someone causes chronic inflammation, they’re probably not cut out for a carnivore dietary way of eating life choice. :smiley:

For me, eating animals is smooth sailing as long as I have enough fat to balance the protein and enough digestive enzymes and phytonutrients from organs… my inflammation markers dropped so low, my doctor thought I was going to die… while I was at the peak of health and energy.

(Doug) #115

:sunglasses:

Was going to say the same thing - with regards to Chris having fewer colds and for shorter duration. It makes perfect sense on an ‘intuitive’ level - the body’s defenses are not spread so thin, they can better concentrate on the matter at hand, etc.

(Doug) #116

I think there is a lot to be said for this. A faster start, yes, but (as others have said) perhaps less sustainable for some - they need to get over the hump of any “keto flu” and cravings for what they used to eat - they need to go long enough to get positive reinforcement from body changes.

On the other hand, anything they do - carbohydrate reduction, cutting out snacking, eating less often, fewer meals, fasting - is likely going to bring good results as well.

If there is a built-in advantage for carnivore, beyond the hardcore carb reduction, I think it’s that the food tends to be very satisfying for a lot of people.

(charlie3) #117

Two weeks into carnivore I’m loviing the food but I’m ravenously hungry, eating too much, and looking forward to that magical self regulating satiety that’s promised by some. I agree with you that a substantial part of the benefit is not from the foods we are eating but the (so-called) foods that are eliminated.

Carnivore is not so radical. Consider Dr. Westman’s page 4 of allowed foods. The only thing between hiis version of Keto and carnivore is 3 cups of leafy greens. Their contribution to micro nutrients is going to be trivial. How disruptive can it be to eliminate them?

The vegetable pushers uses weasal words. Vegetables are a “good source” of what ever. What does that mean? Not much. Until two weeks ago I was eating a dinner salad with probably 15 servings of veggies 6 days a week. They made contributions to the rda’s for micro nutrients but didn’t get the job done according to Cronometer. So the fall back position is, you need the fiber. Really? Where’s the science? The primary thing I miss about the big salad is it filled me up better than animal foods.

Another favorite of the plant pushers is to talk about protein as though it’s some sort of low grade toxin and if we eat just a little too much bad things will happen. Science please.

II have a hunch, just a hunch, that eating “too much” protein is either harmless most of the time or has has some unobvious benefits not related to protein synthsis. Otherwise It’s hard to explaiin Shawn Baker’s success at the indoor rowing world championship after more than a year eating carnivore.

P.S. I recall a YT video where Ben Bickman seems to say the body processes protein better in the absense of carbs. I forget the details.

(Karim Wassef) #118

Remember that most satiety comes from fat, not protein. Protein is more satisfying that carbs but it can also work against you in excess. At least it did for me.

(charlie3) #119

The eating discipline that worked so well for me for a year has degraded substantially since starting carnivore two weeks ago. I’ll be patient.

How much protein was excess in your experience? What were the negative effects?

I’d like my protein intake to be lower. Reducing protein and increasing fat is more challenging with carnivore because the two are usually comingled. So I’m having my butcher make 60-70% lean ground chuck instead of the typical 80%. I take the fat that drains out in cooking and pour it back on the meat. A bonus, the extra fat improves the flavor of the meat.

(Karim Wassef) #120

I still target 75% fat. Eating too much protein makes me hungry again.
Strict carni can be hard, but dairy helps.

I created a table of high fat carnivore foods - here’s my priority:

  1. cured ham
  2. lamb
  3. bacon
  4. sour cream
  5. duck
  6. cream cheese
  7. goose liver pate
  8. ground beef (highest fat%)
  9. frankfurter and brotwurst
  10. feed ribs
  11. sausage (beef, pork)
  12. egg yolk
  13. mackerel
  14. mortadella
  15. blue cheese
  16. prime rib
  17. mozzarella
  18. ribeye
  19. chicken thighs with skin
  20. beef and lamb brain
  21. lamp chops
  22. sardines
  23. salmon
  24. parmesan cheese
  25. eggs

I used https://nutritiondata.self.com and ranked by fat% to get there… a little obsessive but it worked for me. :slight_smile:

It’s Keto 80% fat? What fat choices do you enjoy?
#121

I think what is missing in a lot of this discussion is that carnivore, as a sub-genre of keto and low carb, for a lot of people is a therapeutic step in reaching some goal or discovering food tolerances. Doing 100% carni for a month or three or even a year is enough time to lose weight, break a keto stall, discover that dairy or some veggies keep you back (that’s why for most it is not THE starting point to transition out of SAD). The 10 year or lifetime prognosis for any WOE that falls within the keto genre is good only if the WOE results in healthy body composition and good health that can be maintained. Theoretical debates about the demerits of eating any spinach or dairy seem silly to me, unless spinach or dairy etc. make you sick or cause autoimmune issues.