Should carnivore be the starting point?


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #61

Here’s a short list, the only one I’m not too sure of is a decade in is Dana, but if not, she’s close. Same with the testimonials on ZeroCarbZen - it varies.

Charlene (and her husband Joe, and their kids, even) http://meatheals.com/2018/02/04/charlene-andersen/
@amber empiri.ca & ketotic.org
Charles http://blog.zeroinginonhealth.com/ (the website is mostly dead-they moved to the facebook group Zeroing in on Health)
Kelly http://myzerocarblife.jamesdhogan.com/wp/
Dana http://www.zerocarbhealth.com/
Many others https://zerocarbzen.com/
Vilhjalmur Stefansson (RIP) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT7u2GlEfxs&feature=youtu.be&t=757 and http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf
And Bear (RIP) http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=287013&page=1&pp=30&goto=journalformat


(Robert C) #62

Thanks @Dread1840

These show (for some) this is possible long term (which is important) but, what counts more (I think) is how many made it vs. how many dropped out.

If I gave you a short list, but longer than your short list (or a long list, also longer than your long list) of n=1 vegans that made it a decade or more and said “Vegan is good” - I somehow think maybe you wouldn’t agree so quickly.

You might ask about how many tried to get those numbers. I suspect that a very large percentage of people that try vegan (i.e. not raised by vegan imposing parents) drop out after not too long (due to health issues like auto-immune problems, fatigue or due to problems maintaining the lifestyle - or just so much food prep plus difficult choices to make to get all the right proteins and fats as well as maybe having to supplement).

It would be nice to know - of 100 vegans starting 10 years ago - how many still are vegan and healthier than they started. I bet it is less than 25% (maybe much less).

Carnivore seems to have fewer problems - food prep is easier, all the right proteins and fats (if grassfed) are there, auto-immune seems to get fixed vs. evolve, fatigue (don’t know?), supplementation might be less but still maybe necessary. So, to me, Carnivore long term (decade+) success for someone seems less dependent on those sorts of things and more dependent some potential health issue evolving (things like continual constipation, blood numbers for sedentary people go south, depression, discovery of cancer growth being accelerated, etc.).

Given all of that, I can see Carnivore doing better than Vegan in terms of the 10-year percentage still happy and healthy on the diet but, can’t be sure without the data (number of people that drop out and why).


(Ketopia Court Jester) #63

If I recall all the scientists correctly, we were all predominantly carnivore pretty much right up to the “discovery” of agriculture, which wasn’t long enough ago for us to evolve into much of anything else. So, we’re basically meat eaters experimenting with not eating meat right now.

It may have been David Getoff I heard say in this lecture that he would only believe veganism was healthy and sustainable if someone could show him a five-generation study of family health and genes remaining intact, but it would require some billionaire funding a study on a remote island where all food was drop shipped to the inhabitants and they were prevented from fishing. Are you listening, Kylie Jenner?


(Ketopia Court Jester) #64

Two months in and no complaints, thanks.

I think what Rob was hinting at was that a keto diet/WOE/whatever is about being in ketosis and whatever foods you can eat and still do that is a ketogenic diet for you.


#65

I’m still confused why we keep comparing Veganism to Carnivore, when Veganism is an ideology first. No one goes Carnivore on the basis that they’re morally opposed to eating plants, whereas 99% of Vegans go Vegan because of their ethics; it’s just that for most of them, their physiology can’t withstand their ideologically-driven diet.

I don’t doubt that humans have always been opportunistic omnivores that have until recently in human history been primarily animal based. And to get closer to optimal health, more and more plants have to be removed for some people. I find it hard to believe I’m doing myself harm when I literally cannot eat raw veggies, due to an allergy.


(Robert C) #66

“we” weren’t “we” back then. How much fruit and vegetables you ate depended a bunch on the season and your latitude. Consumption of easily gotten fruit to fatten on during the summer in preparation for winter seems very likely (vs. chasing around some yet-to-fatten dangerous animal with teeth and claws).

Far north and south areas probably had darn near carnivore diets for a large part of the year but we know even Inuits grabbed up fruit when available. Closer to the equator you go, more easy food available more of the year.


(Robert C) #67

I was talking long-term.
Does omega 6 laden beef give you a heart attack in 5 years but grassfed ends up improving heart health?
Or does it matter at all?

I think some people point out the positive pass-through of nutrients / vitamins / minerals but, I would assume that only works for grassfed beef.

What is the positive pass-through from corn fed cows?


(Ketopia Court Jester) #68

That’s me, the Far North Darn Near Carnivore. In Portland, Oregon, I’m living farther south than all my peeps as far as you can trace them back through the written word.

We’ll disregard the weird uncle in Reno for sake of argument. Dude eats at Walmart.

So, yes, actually “we” were “we” back then.


(Robert C) #69

Best to do 23andme to get the details of the ancestral background - you also get your hemochromatosis status (if you order the health details). You wouldn’t want to be Carnivore if you have that issue.


(Ketopia Court Jester) #70

Well, you go ahead and stress over it. I’m going to relax over here and enjoy my dinner. Most people don’t know it, but that’s key.


(charlie3) #71

I’ve only been involved in this modern era of nutrition for a year so there’s plenty of background I don’t have. That’s one reason why having a forum like this, to test ideas, is useful, at least for me. I’m a health agnostic. To paraphrase Chris Masterjohn, details, schmetails, just tell me what works. But there are a lot of unknowns about what works so we investgate together.

I’ve been persuaded by a fast growing part of the nutrition world that carbs are problematic and there can be significant health benefits by getting control of them. The one thing the low carb crowd agrees about is avoiding junk food–eat real food. After that, particularly as the percent of carbs decreases there tends to be increasing disagreement about what is optimal. The most strict program for what’s called keto is Dr. Westman’s page 4 calling for 20 total carbs. So far I’m finding zero carbs is easier. The same might be true for beginners. (They can always add some veggies on short notice if necessary.) I’m saving significant time and money. That matters too. I think Carnivore is just another low carb stratagy among all the others.


(Consensus is Politics) #72

I honestly think it made it easier. My body had plenty of glycogen stores to empty out before being forced to burn fat. So in a way my body was eased into it on its own.


(It's all about the bacon, baby) #73

Do we? I thought Stefansson said the reverse. Has someone shown him to be wrong?


(bulkbiker) #74

Be odd to find fruits growing in the frozen wastes?


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #75

Even in the summer, there’s almost no plant food in the arctic. The people that live there now, if they don’t buy commercial food, live off animals solely. It’s less common now that “Western” influence has taken over to cause disease, but if they are living off the land, it’s not picking berries. There’s very little reward to significant time investment, energy-wise. Better to shoot a caribou and live off it for a few weeks than to happen upon a handful of blueberries, maybe 1/3 of them edible. Or maybe one could pick them out of animal scat.


(Karim Wassef) #76

Really believe that liver is a vegetable bi-product…

Inuit eat seals - seals eat fish - fish eat krill - krill eat plankton… plankton use sunlight = phytonutrients… we’re all planktonivores in the end


(Robert C) #77


End of the first paragraph.


(Karim Wassef) #78

Opportunistic… not necessary.


#79

::dizzy_face: I had no idea this was possible

Sincerely,
Potato ADDICT


(Robert C) #80

I agree that this is not in the “Show me the science” but that is currently an opinion or hypothesis - and may not hold for all non-Inuits.

It also may not hold for people that do not eat nose-to-tail (as the Inuits did) but instead eat factory farmed corn fed Ribeye’s all day.

I am not against Carnivore but - prefer to keep my mind open.