Set Point/Weight Loss

(Doug) #41

THIS. 3 or 4 hard boiled eggs, and that’s it and I want nothing more, with a stomach that once could hold two large pizzas.

#42

It sounds like a sudden, clear stop sign I get only when I eat meat… I never had anything like that on my previous keto. I lost my hunger… Ate much more… Got very nicely satiated… And I still could eat much afterwards.
And sometimes waiting for an hour is what brings satiation. Fortunately I rarely need to stop eating while a bit hungry but I need to be ready for even that :slight_smile: Just like eating beyond satiation. Not ideal but what can I do if I can’t have things ideally that time? I try to choose the best option (or the most enjoyable one. but hopefully they are close).

I am not sure if I abandoned the “full” thing and use “satiation” because your comments I’ve read years ago but they may have some effect. It suits me way better. What is “full”? Satiation seems more important and I feel it way more clearly than “fullness”. It was worst when I felt full and satiated but my stomach was empty (I don’t really feel that unless maybe if I focus on it extremely much). So I extremely rarely say I am full nowadays. Even then it’s a feeling of fullness, I probably could eat more as my stomach can stretch more.

Satiation is highly important for me. Hunger is way, way less. I haven’t met mine since… I don’t know. Since several days, maybe? Except some borderline type that is cute, enjoyable and definitely doesn’t make me want to eat?
Hunger is often not very reliable. My hunger signs are okay, they just go on holidays on very low-carb… I often have them and often not.
I have “need to refuel” signs now. Or it would be better to say “my body wants food and starts to take away its services”. I don’t know why hunger signs are affected, normally my body should give me those. Oh well. As long as I still have something, it’s fine. It would be super weird to eat according to macros and times.

Oh so it’s eggs for someone! After 4 boiled eggs I am quite hungry with super few exceptions. But I just need a cute amount of pork roast (I realized I am probably the 20oz type on a good day in raw weight) and maybe some dessert - the meat stop sign, if it arrives, not always does, makes it small and after a little break - and I am good for a long time! (If the pork is quite fatty, at least.)
I eat less than before but my current meals are not smaller than my old ones… Except my biggest old ones, I had my moments. I still can’t call a <2000 kcal meal a big one. I probably never will. It’s a decent sized meal, maybe enough to satiate me, maybe not (even if I use my best satiating food).
I probably was born with it, I can’t have tiny meals, they make me hungry like fasting rarely can.

2 large pizzas aren’t so very much volume wise, I would think. My stomach seems to be able to hold 2 liters but I couldn’t test it lately.
My satiation is about macros, mostly, not only but volume doesn’t matter at all. I do particularly good eating super energy dense food (especially if the type is right. I can’t get satiated with much added fat without overeating or eating super low protein and I dislike both options) while typical dieters always goes to the opposite direction, quite seriously, it’s not a pleasant feeling to see that sometimes. So against my instincts and tastes and everything.

(Doug) #43

Well, I think we’re just going to have to disagree about that one, Shinita. :grimacing:

#44

Honestly, I don’t know the volume in liters even vaguely… Especially that I saw super thin pizzas (yeah, not the usual) that made nothing to my hunger (while I rarely could eat half a normal pizza).
It has zillion calories, sure, I probably never could finish half of them (if they have the normal volume and a rich topping) despite my impressive overeating abilities but the volume itself may be not excessive for someone with a bigger maximum capacity stomach (like me and I am a short woman, surely not with some extreme stomach).
But I have no idea, actually, I just know pizzas are kinda thin :slight_smile:

(Edith) #45

Same for me. I could still get over-full when I ate keto foods.

#46

I didn’t get overly full. I felt I ate normal, I even got satiated just fine just without that convenient stop sign (not always so convenient, today it came before I ate enough. so I ate more just not meat) and tracked 3000 kcal (way too much for me). But just sometimes, keto was actually good for maintenance for me (too bad I wanted to lose fat). It depends on food choices, though.
It seems many people have this magical thing that if they eat little carbs, they don’t overeat (and even slim down). It definitely helps me as well but it’s just a chance to avoid overeating, it’s still super easy to do with the wrong items. Eating my daily energy need in one sitting doesn’t necessarily satiate me even on very low-carb… But focusing on the right items, very close to carnivore? That seem to work well. That’s what I do know and I am very hopeful.

(Butter Withaspoon) #47

:arrow_up: This! The meat hard stop is an experience worth having if you’ve spent years operating under the brain cravings of carbohydrates. I get the strongest signal with red meat in particular. I’ve learned to call it protein satiety. It’s most striking when the meal is fatty meat only, nothing else.

Generally I find the hunger and satiety signals around meat fish and eggs are deeper and more subtle. I don’t always eat to that hard stop, especially if the meal is mixed protein and other foods. I feel like carbs hunger operates on a loud, very present, shouty level that is impossible to ignore, whereas protein hunger and satiety is deeper and quieter.

Once you experience that red meat (or egg) hard stop you can try and observe it with mixed meals. One thing that helps me is not to sit still to eat. If I’m moving around, doing things in between eating, my body soon chooses to lose interest in another bowl of food because we want to get on with things. If I sit still, I can fit in an extra bowl

(Edith) #48

I actually had it happen at lunch today. I’ve been having chicken thighs for lunch every day this week. I love thighs and wings. I figured it might be because I need something in the skin or cartilage. Well, after three days of thighs and wings, I could not finish my lunch today. I got halfway through the second thigh and could not take one more bite.

I will not be having chicken thighs for lunch tomorrow. Time for something else. :slight_smile:

One thing that helps me is not to sit still to eat

The only time I do this for dinner. I eat breakfast and lunch either moving around doing stuff or eating lunch at my desk while I’m working. I’ve been thinking that’s a bad habit and I should learn to settle down and really enjoy my meals. Be kind of Buddhist about them. So far, the thought is there, but I haven’t even come close to giving it a try. Lol.

#49

I am big on enjoying my food to the fullest, my SO gets annoyed with me sometimes when I expect that from him as well (it’s very automatic, there is some food we rarely eat, it’s special, exotic, we should focus on it even if not on our normal food)… He reads while eating and enjoys the freedom to do so.
Each to their own.
Sitting during my meal (except when I take out more food from the fridge or make pancakes or something) is perfect for me. If I am hungry, I am hungry and nothing can keep my mind off from that.
Waiting a bit here and there is a technique I use, though. Sometimes I need a little time to reach satiation or get back my hunger when I know I need more food.

I couldn’t finish a chicken meal either, I just would be super hungry :smiley: But that’s why I don’t eat chicken, I don’t like it (unless it’s super expensive, properly raised chicken, almost or totally beef priced. not like I tried those from the supermarket, I only ate home-raised chicken and that was great) and it can’t satiate me at all. But I visit my aunt in a few weeks and there will be good chicken again and I will test it.
I rather experiment with my usual food but without other items (as much as I can pull that off). I am so curious what happens if I eat at the right time (I can’t eat a proper sized meal too early and rarely enjoy my food enough late) but only (fresh) meat. There are multiple very likely scenarios but I keep changing, I don’t get bored of meat so easily anymore…

(Traci Simpson) #51

I was told by a few carnivores (10 + years in ) that if you / were undereating that you have to increase your calories for a bit to change your set point. For me, I think I was eating around 1200-1800 calories a day which is not enough so I’ve tried to increase to just shy of 3000 which is about 2 or 2.5 lbs of meat a day in order to kick start my metabolism again. I’ve only been doing this for about 2 months but it’s not a fast process.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #52

I don’t eat carnivore myself, or at least not yet, but that amount of meat seems typical for what I’ve read. Let us know how you get on in the next few months.

(Marianne) #53

That seems to be about how much I eat. Sometimes I get paranoid about it, but I’m eating to satiety and haven’t gained weight.

(Robin) #54

It’s worth trying. I love to sit in silence and eat. Like the Buddhist saying, “When you eat the orange, eat the orange.” So much of our mind is occupied otherwise. We eat our feelings. My husband watches the news while he eats. I think he is virtually eating anxiety, hate, and fear. Fortunately, we rarely eat together and when we do, he turns off the tv. I think he agrees with my thinking, but he’s addicted. That’s another rant, for another forum.

(Robin) #55

Best description of the way I feel with almost every meal. Put down the fork. Now.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #56

Or, since this is the Carnivore forum, “When you eat the bacon, eat the bacon”! :bacon::bacon:

#57

‘set points’ are real in the body but not the way alot of people do think of them as some mystical critter ya know…we all have physical issues from being ‘wrecked’ thru our years of icky eating and what I do like is this ‘simplified version’ from one of our carnivores, Dr. Kevin Stock.

He says to think of the ‘set point’ in our bodies as just a temperature reading of who we are at the time of starting our carnivore journey. Who are we when we start carnivore, have we been losing weight already into carnivore and what healing has to happen to achieve our best on carnivore…but key on this plan is TIME. Time heals all wounds right? HA but in the end time is truly one of the most important factors in carnivore and when we experiment with those last lbs we want off or are focusing on that scale, that little bit of pooch left on our guts we want gone, etc. we have to remember that time is what will drive our bodies on this plan to react. Time tho is usually the one thing we don’t want to give our plans to do their work and achieve goals we want faster than the plan will give and of course for alot of us that is just natural, we all want instant gratification :slight_smile:

Here is part of it:
However, most people have body fat levels that are far above their natural set point. And the further someone is above this natural set-point the more dramatic their results tend to be. That said, the longer someone is way above their “natural bodyfat setpoint” the more likely that “setpoint” moved up as well.

What’s Your Temperature?
An easy way to think of this is like a thermometer.
Let’s take John and Sally’s temperature.
John’s Temperature
Let’s assume John’s natural, healthy body fat level is 70 degrees.
Thanks to the modern, unnatural diet, John put on significant weight over the years. His thermometer went up to 100 degrees.
Since John has been well over his natural 70 degrees for decades, his natural setpoint (70 degrees) has “re-set” to 80 degrees.
So once John started eating a carnivore diet, he dropped from 100 degrees to 80 degrees. He lost 20 degrees (65lbs) with ease. His reversed his health problems.
He’s ecstatic with his body composition.

But in “Year 2” of the carnivore diet, John finds that his body doesn’t want to go all the way back down to 70 degrees. His setpoint had “recalibrated” from years of being overweight.
Having regained his health and vitality as well as dropping to his new setpoint of 80 degrees – John can continue to the 3 Steps (in Part 2) if he desires to drop the last 10 degrees.
Often a “John” has no desire to drop these last 10 degrees, as he is thrilled with how he looks and how he feels. Plus, as time passes, it’s common for these last 10 degrees to slowly drop back to the baseline of 70 degrees – especially if John added in some training.
The goal for a “John” at 100 degrees is to get to 80 degrees first. This can take time and requires patience. Trying to rush to 70 degrees by jumping past Part I to Part II and the 3 Steps can hinder the process.

Sally’s Temperature
For some people (especially those who are closer to their natural body fat and who have a history of restricted diets) –may experience the opposite – fat and weight gain. The temperature going up initially.
Let’s see what “Sally” may experience.
Again, let’s assume Sally’s natural temperature is 70 degrees. Although she watches what she eats and exercises she’s still has a bit more body fat than she would like. Her thermometer is at 80 degrees.
But when Sally goes on the Carnivore Diet, her thermometer inches up. She gains weight.
Although Sally is at 80 degrees, the years of restrictive dieting made her body think she was at 50 degrees. The poor nutrition, the malnourished cells, the dysregulated hormones beg her to turn up the temperature.
This is the dichotomy of being overweight but malnourished.
The goal for a “Sally” is to let her body recalibrate.
If her body fat is at 80 degrees, her body needs to recognize it as 80 degrees.

As she fills her body with proper nutrition, as cells become healthy and hormones regulate, she will find congruence between what temperature her body thinks it’s at and her actual body fat levels.

Many people are just like John. They lose fat. And they lose it fast. They feel better. They look better. And they never think about tinkering with the diet.
Yet, for every “John” there is a “Sally.” It seems unfair, as she was the one who has worked to stay healthy and get fit. But often a “Sally” must take a step or two backwards before taking steps forward.

------so key to carnivore plan is just eat the plan :slight_smile: Don’t tweak around or monkey with the plan on how many kcals to eat or anything else.

NOW if one wants to ‘control’ and tweak a bit…what one does is watch their fat intake. But when we knock down the fat we must be sure to eat bigger leaner protein. We never want to just ‘restrict kcals’ to some low level, that can backfire on us.

Very slowly, just have a leaner meat eating day and less fat for a day or 2 and then make sure you have a fattier meat day for a few days and rinse and repeat…but always watch yourself. On a few leaner meat eating days you can truly get ravenous with that less fat, SO THIS IS usually only recommended for longer term carnivores who put in the intitial time to heal their bodies more and can slowly work with situations like this if they want.

most recommendations is just eat the plan…your body will at some point naturally want to eat leaner meat days :slight_smile: You eat lighter by choice cause you just are not hungry and are become very nourished and healed, and this comes thru us healing and hormones resetting and all that jazz so nature handles it for us but if one wants to ‘rush it a bit’ then one can force eating leaner days on carnivore but again, be careful in tweaking this plan. It truly can backfire on a person :slight_smile:

and remember also guys there is alot of keto plan chat in this thread, but this is a carnivore plan issue with the original poster. Carnivore plan won’t be using any keto plan tricks or using any low carb tricks/tips etc. Carnivore plan has its own way of being handled ya know and it is very different on how the small changes we want to make should be handled.

Carnivore boils down mostly to eat the plan, watch what meats/seafood fish and fowl your body is asking for on that day and eat accordingly. This is how our bodies change and ask for certain foods that will work for us, without us manipulating anything.

the key to it all for carnivore is that fat intake. But only can it be handled in very small changes and if one cuts back fatty meat intake to leaner meat, one has to eat more leaner meat also. One doesn’t want to do any dramatic kcal cuts on carnivore.

ok just some carnivore chat :slight_smile:

(Marianne) #58

Very interesting. I tend to like a lot of fat in my diet, 73/27 hamburgers, pork steaks (and I eat all or most of the fat), chicken wings, no fish for me. This week, however, I was craving something “cleaner” (leaner). Went and got a rotisserie chicken (did cook my own not too long ago, but it’s too much of a hassle and mess), and was munching on that. Of course, I prefer the legs and thighs, but I still think it has less fat that what I normally consume. As long as I’m not gaining, I’m very chill about my plan and how I’m eating.

#59

Ahh that shows alot about you :slight_smile: Means you are still changing and becoming a different eating pattern, which is a great thing, it means your body is showing you what you want to eat, something ‘cleaner and leaner’ and that is wonderful actually!! Just eat like your body is asking and you will be in great shape. Means nature and nourishment and a healthy body is your driving force to your meals, that is what all us carnivores want to achieve and you are right on your way :slight_smile:

(Traci Simpson) #60

AMAZING Thank you!