Resetting a potentially lowered BMR via 3 to 5 day fast

#2

I am also interested in this as my recent RMR test showed I have a slow RMR (1500) which is low for my height, weight, age and gender.

#3

@FueledbyFat I don’t happen to know RMR means or how to get it tested, but I too, am interested in improving my Metabolism. I do lots of fasting, but even after losing 140+, I still think I still have a deranged metabolism. (But it’s much better)

I lift once a week, High Intensity, Doug McGuff style.

I didn’t’ get in this kind of shape overnight, and fixin’ it is gonna take some time.

I must be patient…

#4

Sorry, it means resting metabolic rate. I had my first DXA scan recently and added an RMR test. That’s how I found it. Metabolism in the toilet :cry: I’m sure this is due to dieting since age 13 (I am 46).

(Straight outta ‘Straya’) #5

I normally skip breakfast but I decided to do a Keto breakfast today due a)2:30am start and b) shake my body up a bit

(Chris W) #6

Ok
First, not sure how fasting will reset your BMR but this will.

I just listened to this yesterday, and although its about satiety carl explains the procedure very well in his reference to eating pork belly.

The best method is to add several hundred calories extra every day in fat, once a day or in a short window. The key is to not have too much of an insulin response that is why fat works the best, but it can be done with protien as well but it is worlds harder.
Think of BMR as the government, when you give them money(fat) they spend it all, if you don’t give them enough money they shut down services that are non critical only spend what they think they can.
Your body will if given enough fat(and only mostly fat in this case) start to increase its usage in less critical things like increasing body temp via brown fat, cranking up mitophagy( I think when fasting I am still researching that) that increases mitochondria (fat burning cells) and immune responses, and other less critical items. When the government has too much money(don’t get me started) they build new fountains and fix the roads, or put whole new roads in, instead of just patching the roads or doing nothing at all. If your body feels its not recieving enough energy(fat) it will clamp down on its use and shut down low level uses. If you are providing more than your BMR will use, the body will start to bleed off the excess in low level uses.
If you increase your insulin(the accountant), or glucose(the supervisor) you could get an insulin spike which will shut down the process and try and store the fat (the accountant putting the money in the bank) that is why fat(the money) is easy because its insulin response is very minimal. As we all know too many accountants or supervisors ruin a good thing.
In a practical sense I like to use HWC or extra fatty meat cuts, but really most any fat source will work, the less protien invovled the better. In my case I have found that if I go no less than 25% over my macro or just slightly past satiety I am normally jumping up noticeably. It can be like getting a shot of caffeine that last for a day or two.
The eat to satiety is probably more important than the macro but it gives you a guide. I will also state that satiety and full are two different things in my mind, full is more of a carb burner feeling(bloated, feeling heavy), satiety is for me my body saying I am good, sometimes that takes way more than than the 25% of the macro.
If I were to compare the two and carl does a good job of explaining it as nearly sick.
Also if you are still new to keto this feeling takes a bit to acquire and understand, its not the same as full, the first couple times I did over do it early on, and well it was not pretty. I got the cues after that.

I hope this helps.

KCKO

(Tina Emmons) #7

WOW!! This is SO timely for me. I have been keto and fasting since Jan 10, 15 weeks and have lost no weight(have 60 to lose) and it’s been suggested to me by @Capnbob and a few others that I am just continuing my calorie restriction. I have probably been restricting calories all of my adult life(30 years). Since there isn’t much more I can change, I mean I have been soooo good and a fasting beast, I just decided, coming off a three-day fast tomorrow, I am going to shoot for 3000 cal/day for 3-4 days. Scary! I have NEVER actually tried to eat more calories! I heard the podcast by Carl mentioned by @In2steam and I’m gonna go for it! Will probably go right into another 3-day fast afterward. Curious if anyone knows how many days of feasting it takes to actually affect your BMR? In answer to your question, from what I’ve heard, it’s the cycling thru feast, fast, OMAD, IF, rinse, repeat. Good luck!

(Chris W) #8

Keep in mind its a few hundred calories a day, if you go nuts you will only store that extra fat because you will get a spike in insulin even with fat. I have been following feast fast for a month or so and the results have been more metabolic than scale, but I am also actively building muscle now. For me this has been about 1/2 HWC extra on or around 120g of fat a day. I eat to satiety most of the time so I don’t follow the fat as close as I used to. I normally do this for at least 3 days before a fast or fat restricting for a few days the results have been mixed on the restricting end more so than the fasting. I don’t clean fast normally I have some fat and or bone broth. This will be my 4 th fast this way coming up.

I will tell you this much, on the week I did it straight I lost more weight before I fasted than while I fasted so it may be worth doing with out a fast as carl describes. And once I ended the fast I gained about 30% back within a day that I had lost during the actual fast. I was bouncing off the walls by the day I started, only thing was the 18 hour mark was not so fun but by no means horrible.

(Straight outta ‘Straya’) #9

Gonna take this bit of advice and reset for a day or two with a small breakfast added in for a) the kcal’s and b) to shake my body out of its routine

(Chris W) #10

Its more beneficial from an insulin standpoint to do as near one meal as possible. If you were to do it over two I would say you want the extra fat on the second one.

(Tina Emmons) #11

I’m curious about your advice on my feast the next few days. You say I should only add a few hundred cal but I’m realizing I have probably been in some form of calorie restriction all of my life, including my first four months of keto and fasting. So…let’s say I was doing omad and IF and not getting more than say, 1000cal a day. If I simply add 200-300cal, I’m still severely restricted. My thought was to really shake it up, just for three days to start and realistically will get to about 2500cal/day which is probably way closer to where I should be, no? I weigh 214lbs and would like to lose about 60. I plan to go straight into a 36-72hr fast afterward, like Carl did. Is my logic off? (As an aside, I find this yet another empowering part of my journey as I am in control of this, actually ADDING calories(mindfully) for the first time EVER but making the choice as to what those foods are.) I truly welcome any further advice or a point in the right direction for more info on getting the metabolism raised. Thanks for being here!!

(Chris W) #12

Yours is not uncommon from what I have seen here.

You have to heal, get your mitochondria working, and get more of them, this all involves proper nutrient intake. If you have cut for the whole time you are in keto you have to allow things to fix themselves my thoughts are it this order

A: give you body enough fat to allow it to use it on lower level functions and not budget let it spend like a drunken sailor.
B:give it the building blocks to fix, add or change those problems that may not have been addressed yet via protein(I used a lot of fish in the first few months)
C: allow it to go catabolic once A&B have been taken care of via a fast on the order of 48 hours min. to kick in some of the other processes like mitophagy and autophagy.
D:Add quality muscle after A and B have happened enough to get ahead of the game. When fully fat adapted slow response muscle burns around 300 calories per kilo I believe(don’t quote me) Adding the right lean mass turns you into a fat burning machine.

I would say in your case, assuming no other major metabolic dysfunction I would get to your BMR levels in short order maybe in 2 to 3 days, if they are less than 500 calories away jump up now. Stepping up would probably be better than all once, just in my n=1 world someone maybe able to offer other advice. I would shoot for 1.0 on the protein scale for a while, if you test you can watch the results a little closer than feeling. Red meat and fish, but liver is excellent as well. This would have to be more about how healthy you are than anything else.

Once you get to the BMR level and hold it for a few days, I would say you should feel good, have energy and never be hungry, then in a few days more increase again in fat,(how much I dunno it is 1/2 cup of HWC for me) this will raise it (not the hard number) by your body bleeding away the excess and using it in places like the immune system etc. From there I would fast for a short time, maybe 2-3 days and see how you feel. The key is you need to feel good, and not be hungry, save maybe some salt hunger while fasting. Rinse and repeat all over again. I have normally taken a 3 day break at near my maintain levels, then boost for 3 days. I have not always fasted, when I have they all have been 60 hours or more on this protocol. I am currently boosting right now at day 2 and its working the same.

I have much success with 3 day bursts again that is an n=1. Your TDEE will also play into this so that may be a better number to shoot for if you are really active like me.

So normally(not boosting) I am closer to maintain macro fat levels, I eat to satiety most of the time(the fat macro is not important anymore at my stage), but when I want to boost I add extra, this will make me “full” maybe a little bloated feeling like in the carb burning days about an hour after my first meal. I will do a shake but the how is not important as the timing, trying to get your protein in earlier, and be more fat heavy later so the insulin response is lower. I have my second meal which tends to be fat heavy and minimal protein.

The difference is noticeable after 2 days, and on the 3rd day I am typically really stoked and moving all the time, hot, and loosing some weight or body fat. I have not hat a chance to try more than 3 days in a row yet.
I hope this makes sense I typed this over an hour and had several distractions.

@Capnbob has the calculator link.

(Rob) #13

This one seems to work well, makes sense, and is free…
https://tdeecalculator.net

(Tina Emmons) #14

Thank you SO much! This is the most personal help I’ve received since joining. I am assuming I’m severely IR but other than that I have no known health issues, my BG is perfect always, always plenty and positive energy, zero hunger issues(well, I’m either never hungry or a master at ignoring it so maybe I shouldn’t say no issues😌) According to my first Dexa my bone density is off the charts and lean mass is excellent so I’m feeling pretty healthy except for 60 extra pounds!! I have felt great since going keto but haven’t felt difinitive adaptation signs, and I’ve done many, many fasts since January and always felt great! Ive done up to 110 hours. Seems wicked that I can’t lose any scale pounds but I’m in it for the long haul! I’ll read your response a couple more times and take it in. I just thought, I have literally tried all of the advice here except upping my calories so that’s this weeks experiment.

(Straight outta ‘Straya’) #15

I’ve upped my kcals by 200-300 over the last 2 days and i’ll Try to keep it at the 1800-2000 range moving forward.

Macros are a tricky one for me. I either go 10g net carbs or for one reason or another end up in the 30-40 zone but that’s a fine tuning issue I’ve been working on for a while.

(Chris W) #16

Well NSV’s count, Please keep in mind that I am 6 months in, and I was fat adapted at 8 weeks and I am fully fat adapted now from what I can tell. I don’t have major metabolic issues and I am pretty fit for someone my age. One of the biggest mistakes I made was to cut fat for the first weeks, maybe 6. Once I figured out that it has been really good for me, I normally don’t cut fat down anymore, that said I don’t track it hardcore either. That is one of the purposes in my mind to keep on the macros for the first month or so you really understand what the levels and feelings are. Some of the best advice I heard is you should never really leave the table hungry.

IR may be a problem, so its even more critical to watch those insulin spikes with your protein. And that may explain the slow loss, just have to get that insulin down.

(Straight outta ‘Straya’) #17

This is a real eye opener for me.

In your judgement does walking 3-5kms a day and 10-20 mins of pushups etc every other day count as moderate exercise? It tells me I should be eating a whopping 2700 kcals a day.

(Rob) #18

If the walking is brisk and the pushups routine hard, then yes. If both are easy it might be towards the lightly active level… might want to split the difference as a target.

The problem is that everyone is different at how they absorb and utilize energy/calories based on genetics, level of fitness and metabolic situation. That’s why the experimentation is useful. The principle of eat to a TDEE may be substantively right in most cases BUT knowing what your TDEE really is is much harder. That said, most people fall pretty close to the estimates so don’t think you are likely to be far away from the calculator e.g. +/- 5-10% not 30-50%

Good luck in your journey!

(Chris W) #19

I would say light to moderate so maybe in between the two. I use moderate that jump is pretty substantial. I have 10k+ steps every day at work plus another hour of moderate exercise 5 days a week sometimes more.

(Ron) #20

Does insulin always go up some right after eating ? So what constitutes a spike?

WTF! Why am I gaining if I’m not eating carbs
(Ron) #21

Sorry about double post.