Really disappointed with the amount of anti-science nonsense coming out of some LCHF/keto folks

(bulkbiker) #61

For @gabe and his supporters here’s some “science” for you…

Hysteria has taken over the world

(bulkbiker) #63

No its very worrying when a large chunk of the world economy has been shut down due to the information these models have supplied (apparently incorrectly) if 2+2 = 500,000 for one run and then 3 for the next don’t you think there might be a problem with the model?

#64

@gabe, I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say and I suspect we would line up politically/policy-wise on most issues, but there’s an us vs them/right vs wrong attitude in your post that seems to me the opposite of scientific thinking. I recently enjoyed this list of 68 Bits of Unsolicited Advice I found it funny and wise and is a quick read for anyone who is interested. The first one is

• Learn how to learn from those you disagree with, or even offend you. See if you can find the truth in what they believe.

I’m working on this a lot right now in my own life. I just try to learn something from the beliefs that I find threatening. Often I’ll come to the conclusion pretty similar to what I held before but with more room in my mind for alternate viewpoints and much more room in my mind for the people who hold them. The clue for me that there’s some digging to do is if it’s an area in which I feel particularly self-righteous or indignant.

#66

Just a follow-up to my earlier post - another way to think of it: you see different opinions on a forum that you like and on which you have a fair amount of overlap with people in one area. You can think:

wow, so many folks that I don’t agree with; it turns out there are a bunch of idiots on here

or

wow so may folks I don’t agree with; I wonder if there’s anything I can learn from their point of view?

One of the things I like about this forum is that it has folks from a wide range of political beliefs, so it give me a chance to find camaraderie and understanding outside of my usual liberal US East Coast bubble.

(bulkbiker) #67

More good sense

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #70

Madeleine, check out my original post. I am the very opposite of closed-minded. I come with no political agenda. I am quite open to everything from the Taiwanese to the Kiwi to the Swedish approach.

I don’t accept for a moment, however, that there are “two sides” to this story. That’s precisely what every conspiracy nut wants: the legitimacy of being one side in a political debate.

  • The cigarette companies were not one side of a fair debate over human health. They were dead wrong.
  • Flat earthers and people who deny the moon landing aren’t worth debating either.
  • climate deniers should be taken just as seriously as these other conspiracy theorists
  • covid deniers the same.

While it is fair to say we should debate policy and be open to the views of others, you are free to have your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

Let me repeat that: you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

So when these conspiracy theorists post videos by “professors” who make insane baseless claims that the virus “confers lifetime immunity,” they should be laughed and ridiculed.

And that low carb “expert” who has been quoted in the thread by @MarkGossage has in my view thoroughly undermined his credibility. Said expert has no medical credentials, might I add.

I will be watching other low carb “experts” closely during this pandemic because the ones who engage in conspiracy theory will out themselves as anti-science. I’d be willing to wager you won’t find respectable figures like Tim Noakes peddling this kind of horse manure.

(bulkbiker) #73

Saladino or Cummins? Or did you not even bother…

(bulkbiker) #74

Deniers…? The typical name calling of those who have lost the argument…

You do realise that so far this year fewer than 300k people have allegedly died from COVID?

Every single day across the globe more than 150k people die. So this “dreadful deadly disease” (as the media love to tell us) has so far caused fewer than 2 days worth of deaths. Odd don’t you think?

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #76

I think we’ve come to the end of the line here. Science deniers, enjoy it. That’s fine.

It’s a great shame that we can’t have a serious conversation about policy options based on the available evidence. Instead, it’s all just fake news and lies. SAD.

(Jane) #77

So what is your personal situation? Sitting comfortably at home with no loss of income? Putting yourself at risk to serve others? On unemployment?

It makes a difference in your outlook and opinions on the subject.

My brother-in-law installs and repairs internet service in Denver where there is a significant outbreak. Cannot do that from your couch. But God forbid people lose their Netflix and online games or can’t check their bank accounts!!!

(bulkbiker) #78

You are the one shutting down the conversation my friend. You refuse to look at the data but instead have joined the hysterical reaction of the media and governments.

The data is the science not the propaganda which you have chosen to believe.

The data shows that peak deaths happened before lockdown could have had an effect and was likely due to the emptying of hospitals of older patients to “clear the decks” for the expected influx of COVID patients who simply haven’t arrived.
The elders were sent back to their care homes where they have expired maybe a few months earlier than they would have. That is likely the tragedy of COVID.

(bulkbiker) #79

All this anti-science…

(Vic) #80

The data is the science not the propaganda

If I could like that 100X This Truth has been forgotten by far too many

(Polly) #81

“And that low carb “expert” who has been quoted in the thread by @MarkGossage has in my view thoroughly undermined his credibility. Said expert has no medical credentials, might I add.”

Do you refer to Ivor Cummins? Here is his CV. https://denversdietdoctor.com/about-ivor-cummins-bechem-ceng-miei/

You will see that his qualifications are in Chemical Engineering with a bias towards complex problem solving. That sounds like the type of scientific mind we want turned on this issue rather than someone who took a medical degree in the past but has now got political affiliations up to his armpits.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #82

If you post a video of a fascist professor making ridiculous claims like “covid infection confers immunity for life” and then delete the tweet after people call you out on it, I don’t think you deserve to be taken seriously.

You are free to take medical advice from engineers if you like. I’ll be listening to pandemic epidemiologists.

I suppose you’d probably head to a geologist if you had a cancerous mole, too.

Credentials matter, and poorly-informed ideologues who post videos of fringe lunatic fascists making ludicrous claims don’t, in my humble opinion, deserve a great deal of respect.

(Vic) #83

SInce you rely on epidemiologists You might as well listen to them on diet as well and go bad to SAD

#84

It’s stuff like this ^ that I’m talking about. We’ve never gotten anywhere with ridicule, nor with calling people conspiracy theorists.
And folks who don’t agree with you - many of them have plenty of facts on which they’re basing their opinions. It’s just different slices of the same numbers or in some cases measuring different things.

Legitimacy of your side of the debate seems to be exactly what you’re going for. I know you don’t think you’ve chosen a side, but you’re mocking people who don’t agree with you, which kind of amounts to the same thing.

To be clear: I think I share your opinions about the way we’re approaching this and how we should examine the data, but I find your posts are particularly polarizing. I.e. I think that people reporting others without masks is not remotely equivalent to reporting Jews in WW2 but it’s pretty clear to me that @anon24390425 wasn’t minimizing the Holocaust. On the contrary, he used that as an analogy to show how deeply concerned he is about the current situation. We can hear that concern without jumping to show how wrong the analogy is.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #86

Conspiracy theorists deserve mockery. “The moon landing was faked” deserves mockery. “The earth is flat” deserves mockery.

This logic is impeccably… bad. Viral epidemiologists, for starters, have nothing to do with diet or nutrition.

Actually, I rebuked that analogy too. Disgusting.

Madeleine, I totally reject your minimization of his behaviour. @anon24390425 compared lockdowns to the Nazis. That is a minimization of the Holocaust and has no place in the discourse at all. I’ve reported it because it’s so beyond the pale.

I’m not much interested in how concerned he is about the situation. There is no comparison of the coronavirus pandemic with the organized rounding up, mass shooting, gassing, experimenting on, and incineration of 6 million Jews in death camps and Einsatzgrouppen and ghettos around Europe. Get a grip, learn some history, and stop defending him for even implying this. It’s DISGRACEFUL and has no place here. I’m disgusted that you’re defending him. Appalled.

#92

Sorry! my bad
I was reading too fast. There’s a fascist professor that Cummins posted a video of?

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #93

I like Ivor, and I haven’t mentioned him by name here in this thread. I’ll let you go down the Twitter rabbit hole yourself :frowning: