Questions for Optimizing My Protein Intake on Keto

(Ahmed A ) #11

I agree that sticking to Keto is better for your well being but unfortunately its Achilles heel is its inferiority to a higher Carbs diet in sports which require quick bursts of energy. I could find a compromise by doing a high carb/low or moderate GL diet (e.g: Barley bread, sweet potatoes, etc), which shouldnt significantly affect blood sugars. I believe that the bigger issue nowadays is that many of our foods are ultra processed and filled with oils high in omega 6 (Sunflower, Canola, Corn, etc) which is the most common cause behind heart diseases nowadays.

(Ahmed A ) #12

To simplify it, high insulin increases aromatase activity (enzyme which raises estrogen)

21

I’ve decided to take the advice in the thread and just listen to my body, my target is around 110g of protein a day (roughly 63.5 kg lean body mass), but if it’s not enough then I will make sure to increase it. The good thing about doing Keto+IF is that ketosis is more efficient at using protein and old proteins are recycled during IF.

(Ahmed A ) #13

It seems like you have been hitting the gym for a long time, or you’re just naturally taller haha.

So essentially 3 times your lean body mass

(Ahmed A ) #14

Thanks for your comment, the reason I ask is because I constantly see youtube videos warning me of consuming too much Protein on Keto as it could cause gluconeogenisis, to clear those doubts I decided to ask people in this forum about it as they have far more experience on a keto diet.

I’d say more than a 10/10 haha. Question btw, do you do HIITs? Specifically sprinting.

  • The plan is that I generally eat foods that are low to moderate GL but still high carb to ensure I can get quick bursts of energy during my matches while still maintaining stable blood sugar levels most of the time.

  • Also prefer avoiding ultra processed foods and unhealthy oils such as Canola, corn, Sunflower, etc.

  • IF will be continued after the diet as it was already a routine before starting this fiet

  • Keto is an excellent diet for endurance but falls short in exercises that require lots of acceleration, speed, and agility. Perhaps you or someone on this thread could correct me on that.

(Ahmed A ) #15

When you buy from local farmers what do you usually look out for before buying from them?

(KM) #16

There seems to be some controversy over whether gluconeogenesis is supply driven or demand driven, though. This is a post from a few years back (if you expand the post there’s a chart and article link), we’ve had a few other discussions about it you can find if you use the website search engine for gluconeogenesis. I think the general consensus was that it’s demand driven, in other words you’ll only produce as much glucose as you need regardless of how much protein you intake.

#17

Sadly no, I can’t run (much. I can do 100m downhill or something… Okay, sometimes without downhill too…). I really want to learn as I consider it a must as a healthy land mammal… But I just can’t bring myself to do much.

Good luck for your after-keto times! It’s quite individual what works for us and it really seems you will do it in a health-conscious way! :slight_smile: many people on this forum seem to think high-carb is SAD and unhealthy. But there is zillion ways to do high-carb… It doesn’t mean one consume any highly processed food, added sugar or seed oils. And while natural sugars may be bad for many in bigger amounts, it’s not true for everyone. I am very fine with animal sugars myself but of course it keeps me low-carb :slight_smile: High-carb is definitely not my way so I wouldn’t do it even for gains (anyway, I believe a little carbs around workouts should do the trick. maybe not even that is needed, I don’t know) but it’s not my top priority anyway, I just would love to get as muscular as I can be (it’s not much, I am a 48 years old female, very lazy, super stubborn, somewhat determined, we will see).

Yeah I don’t need that either. I want strength and muscle mass. A half marathon would be nice one day (if I ever learn how to run) but I wouldn’t care about my speed at all (as far as it’s above my walking speed).

I am looking forward to others talking about the importance of carbs when it comes to certain or just intense enough exercise. It never was very important for me as I just didn’t do that kind. Anyway, I would feel if my body couldn’t keep up. But I really wouldn’t like to eat much carbs regularly as my body very clearly communicated it doesn’t like it. But it’s possible that if I burn it off right away with exercise, it’s different. It would make much sense. It still wouldn’t allow high-carb, I never go back to that.

I don’t fear protein (I mean gluconeogenesis) as that myth was debunked AND it’s not like I don’t try to eat as little protein as possible already. Anyway, if my body says it WILL get 130+ g protein a day or else bad things will happen to me, I don’t try to go much lower :smiley: (Just carefully. I had some 100g OMAD days though I typically need much more protein for such a meal. 100g protein is very little food, even if it’s quite fatty.)

Your 110g protein sounds good as a starting point!

(Joey) #18

Worthwhile reading for athletes - these respected researchers have studied this topic with some rigor…

https://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance/

Find it on Amazon.

(Chuck) #19

I pay from the small farmers locally, not the large ones .I don’t want fruit and vegetables that have had lots of chemicals used. I want only pasture fed meat.

#20

Once fat adapted, you will have metabolic flexability. Best of both worlds. It is not an “either or” situation. Once the intensity increases and your blood lactate level rises above 2 mmol/L (Zone 2), the body starts to burn more glucose than fat. As the intensity increases, so does the demand for glucose. Fuel according to your workout. Steady-state endurance workouts done at low intensity do not require carbs if fat-adapted and can be done for hours. These can be done in fasted states.
Eat a variety of foods to maximize gut health, ensuring the best quality that your budget allows and is available to you, and minimizing the ultraprocessed. I would strongly suggest that you do a DEXA scan. This will provide empirical data on current fat and muscle mass. Think of it as a baseline. I have 15 years worth of DEXA scans and can see exactly what is happening to my fat and muscle mass as I get older. Cost is about $100, approx.

(Ahmed A ) #21

And that’s the thing, I am going for workouts that are high intensity in intervals

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #22

This may be true in the short term, but Volek et al. have shown that after two years of keto-adaptation, the glycogen stores of keto athletes are indistinguishable from those of carb-burners.

So while explosive power takes longer to return than endurance, it does return. Of course, if you are unwlling to wait out the adaptation period, then a ketogenic diet is not for you.

(Bob M) #23

I really am not enamored with these arguments that are “the top 1% of athletes need X, so therefore you do too!” It could be there are people who need carbs for some reason, but 99.9999999% of us do not.

#24

You may or may not burn through your carb stores (2000 cal approx.). Even when fat is adapted, you will burn carbs, but at a slower rate. Duration plays a big role here. Experiment and test. I never go into a gym session under-fueled. Just does not work for me. On the rare occasions that I have, I become ravinous afterwards and eat anything and everything.
If the intensity is hard enough and the duration is long enough, you will need exogenous carbs to get through the workout. This crossover point occurs when your blood lactate rises above 2 mmol/L. This is the point when the body starts to demand a higher amount of carbs and less fat. In fat-adapted athletes and those at the highest of endurance levels, this crossover point happens at a much higher intensity than somebody who is not fat-adapted or is a non-athlete. As a reference point, Tour de France bike riders are some of the most mitochondrial efficient athletes on the plant and will consume an enormous amount of carbs (100 grams+/hour) on a mountainous stage. Their crossover point occurs at a level that would be considered max output for the average athelte. Test and see what works best for you.

#25

While this is true, Volek’s study consisted of only 20 athletes, and the level of intensity was (64% of Vo2max) low, though the duration was long at 180 minutes. Neither of the two groups taxed their systems enough to go above the 2 mmol/L blood lactate level, as the level of intensity was low. I would expect if the two groups exercised at a higher intensity that the fat-adapted group would delay this crossover effect. Volek did show that the fat oxidation rate was 59% higher in the adapted group. That is significant in that they were more efficient at using fat as fuel.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #26

Precisely. So better fat oxidation and equivalent glycogen stores. What’s not to like? :grin:

#27

What is fascinating is that Dr. Fung, through his own research, found that those patients with preT2D and T2D already have a blood lactate over 2 mmol/L at rest, no exercise involved. Their systems essentially only burned sugar or very little fat. His program, as you already know, combines keto with some IF so the body uses up all of its glucose and can relearn to burn fat.

(Bob M) #28

I’ve been wondering about the difference between protein and fat and GNG. Let’s say that GNG is demand-driven. Say your body wants your blood sugar to be 100 (in US units) in order to, let’s say, replace glycogen stores.

You have two diets: (1) 250g of protein and the rest of your calories in fat, and you eat 2,500 calories, so 167g of fat, 60 percent fat; (2) 100g of protein and the rest of your 2,500 calories in fat, 84% of calories from fat.

I’ll assume that 250g of protein would get you 100 for blood sugar. What about 100g of protein? Could you get 100 for blood sugar? I don’t know enough about GNG to know whether this is possible.

I’m wondering if GNG is rate limited by fat intake. This could be why higher fat might cause lower blood sugar, higher ketones: your body wants more blood sugar, but can’t get it because it is rate limited due to higher fat intake.

Unfortunately, I can’t find a study that addresses this.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #29

The body is never going to convert all protein intake into glucose. Gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis are both driven by low insulin, which means that glucose (carbohydrate) intake has to be low, and there has to be enough fat intake to generate ketones to feed the brain.

I suppose that theoretically, it is possible to eat protein without any fat, but that would require a degree of processing that nature does not provide. In nature, protein is always accompanied by fat. On the diet we evolved to eat (that is, not the standard Western diet), the liver makes the necessary amount of ketones and glucose (1 U.S. tsp, on average) to keep the brain fed. If the muscles need some of that glucose to replenish their glycogen store, the liver either shares some of the glycogen it has made for that purpose or it makes more glucose.

The larger part of the amino acids (that is, protein) we eat are needed for building or rebuilding tissues. The body deaminates enough of those amino acids to meet its daily nitrogen need and uses the liberated fat/glucose as needed. (Some deaminated acids can easily be made into a fatty acid but not glucose, some deaminated acids can be made into glucose but not fat, and a few can be made into either.) The energy cost of deamination is part of what regulates gluconeogenesis.

Just because the body can deaminate amino acids doesn’t mean that it always does. There has to be a need that makes the energy cost of deamination worthwhile.

Your second paragraph is an interesting speculation. Amber O’Hearn once did a lecture hypothesising that the increased serum glucose sometimes found in carnivores might result from insufficient fat intake.

All of these questions result from the Western idea that the body is stupid and must be dominated by the mind. My own belief is contrary: that it is difficult to out-think two million years of evolution, and we run the risk of experiencing unintended side effects when we try to do so.

#30

If you’re working out, lifting weights and trying to gain or maintain muscle, the go-to is 1g/lb of bodyweight (not lean mass). If you’re obese, then you’d do 1g/lb of desired bodyweight, BUT keep in mind higher can also still be a good thing even then as it’s more muscle protective.

Not quite, the amount of Aromatase you make is genetic, unless you’re planning on taking Aromatase Inhibitors, you’re focussing on the wrong thing. Losing bodyfat right out of the gate will lower your Estrogen levels, at 20% you’re not super high to begin with, and unlikely you’re having any real E2 issues. Have you had your Test, E2 and Free Test measured? That’s a much better thing to go by. The overwhelming majority of people that thing they’re high aromatizes, aren’t. If you’re not having any high E2 symptoms, and it’s decently in range both by itself, and for your testosterone level, don’t worry about it.

However, if you’re like half the male planet, and you have the Testosterone levels of a 70yo when you’re in your 20’s, that’s a problem in of itself, because then you’re too far out of balance and even good E2 levels can produce the effects of high E2, even though it’s not. Also, your Insulin levels aren’t driving how your make aromatase, if that were the case everybody Insulin using bodybuilder on the planet would have a serious problem.

I’m actually using Insulin right now while losing more fat, and I keep an eye on everything quarterly, literally no change in E2 levels from my normal E2 management I have in place.