Questions for Optimizing My Protein Intake on Keto

(Ahmed A ) #21

And that’s the thing, I am going for workouts that are high intensity in intervals

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #22

This may be true in the short term, but Volek et al. have shown that after two years of keto-adaptation, the glycogen stores of keto athletes are indistinguishable from those of carb-burners.

So while explosive power takes longer to return than endurance, it does return. Of course, if you are unwlling to wait out the adaptation period, then a ketogenic diet is not for you.

(Bob M) #23

I really am not enamored with these arguments that are “the top 1% of athletes need X, so therefore you do too!” It could be there are people who need carbs for some reason, but 99.9999999% of us do not.

#24

You may or may not burn through your carb stores (2000 cal approx.). Even when fat is adapted, you will burn carbs, but at a slower rate. Duration plays a big role here. Experiment and test. I never go into a gym session under-fueled. Just does not work for me. On the rare occasions that I have, I become ravinous afterwards and eat anything and everything.
If the intensity is hard enough and the duration is long enough, you will need exogenous carbs to get through the workout. This crossover point occurs when your blood lactate rises above 2 mmol/L. This is the point when the body starts to demand a higher amount of carbs and less fat. In fat-adapted athletes and those at the highest of endurance levels, this crossover point happens at a much higher intensity than somebody who is not fat-adapted or is a non-athlete. As a reference point, Tour de France bike riders are some of the most mitochondrial efficient athletes on the plant and will consume an enormous amount of carbs (100 grams+/hour) on a mountainous stage. Their crossover point occurs at a level that would be considered max output for the average athelte. Test and see what works best for you.

#25

While this is true, Volek’s study consisted of only 20 athletes, and the level of intensity was (64% of Vo2max) low, though the duration was long at 180 minutes. Neither of the two groups taxed their systems enough to go above the 2 mmol/L blood lactate level, as the level of intensity was low. I would expect if the two groups exercised at a higher intensity that the fat-adapted group would delay this crossover effect. Volek did show that the fat oxidation rate was 59% higher in the adapted group. That is significant in that they were more efficient at using fat as fuel.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #26

Precisely. So better fat oxidation and equivalent glycogen stores. What’s not to like? :grin:

#27

What is fascinating is that Dr. Fung, through his own research, found that those patients with preT2D and T2D already have a blood lactate over 2 mmol/L at rest, no exercise involved. Their systems essentially only burned sugar or very little fat. His program, as you already know, combines keto with some IF so the body uses up all of its glucose and can relearn to burn fat.

(Bob M) #28

I’ve been wondering about the difference between protein and fat and GNG. Let’s say that GNG is demand-driven. Say your body wants your blood sugar to be 100 (in US units) in order to, let’s say, replace glycogen stores.

You have two diets: (1) 250g of protein and the rest of your calories in fat, and you eat 2,500 calories, so 167g of fat, 60 percent fat; (2) 100g of protein and the rest of your 2,500 calories in fat, 84% of calories from fat.

I’ll assume that 250g of protein would get you 100 for blood sugar. What about 100g of protein? Could you get 100 for blood sugar? I don’t know enough about GNG to know whether this is possible.

I’m wondering if GNG is rate limited by fat intake. This could be why higher fat might cause lower blood sugar, higher ketones: your body wants more blood sugar, but can’t get it because it is rate limited due to higher fat intake.

Unfortunately, I can’t find a study that addresses this.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #29

The body is never going to convert all protein intake into glucose. Gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis are both driven by low insulin, which means that glucose (carbohydrate) intake has to be low, and there has to be enough fat intake to generate ketones to feed the brain.

I suppose that theoretically, it is possible to eat protein without any fat, but that would require a degree of processing that nature does not provide. In nature, protein is always accompanied by fat. On the diet we evolved to eat (that is, not the standard Western diet), the liver makes the necessary amount of ketones and glucose (1 U.S. tsp, on average) to keep the brain fed. If the muscles need some of that glucose to replenish their glycogen store, the liver either shares some of the glycogen it has made for that purpose or it makes more glucose.

The larger part of the amino acids (that is, protein) we eat are needed for building or rebuilding tissues. The body deaminates enough of those amino acids to meet its daily nitrogen need and uses the liberated fat/glucose as needed. (Some deaminated acids can easily be made into a fatty acid but not glucose, some deaminated acids can be made into glucose but not fat, and a few can be made into either.) The energy cost of deamination is part of what regulates gluconeogenesis.

Just because the body can deaminate amino acids doesn’t mean that it always does. There has to be a need that makes the energy cost of deamination worthwhile.

Your second paragraph is an interesting speculation. Amber O’Hearn once did a lecture hypothesising that the increased serum glucose sometimes found in carnivores might result from insufficient fat intake.

All of these questions result from the Western idea that the body is stupid and must be dominated by the mind. My own belief is contrary: that it is difficult to out-think two million years of evolution, and we run the risk of experiencing unintended side effects when we try to do so.

#30

If you’re working out, lifting weights and trying to gain or maintain muscle, the go-to is 1g/lb of bodyweight (not lean mass). If you’re obese, then you’d do 1g/lb of desired bodyweight, BUT keep in mind higher can also still be a good thing even then as it’s more muscle protective.

Not quite, the amount of Aromatase you make is genetic, unless you’re planning on taking Aromatase Inhibitors, you’re focussing on the wrong thing. Losing bodyfat right out of the gate will lower your Estrogen levels, at 20% you’re not super high to begin with, and unlikely you’re having any real E2 issues. Have you had your Test, E2 and Free Test measured? That’s a much better thing to go by. The overwhelming majority of people that thing they’re high aromatizes, aren’t. If you’re not having any high E2 symptoms, and it’s decently in range both by itself, and for your testosterone level, don’t worry about it.

However, if you’re like half the male planet, and you have the Testosterone levels of a 70yo when you’re in your 20’s, that’s a problem in of itself, because then you’re too far out of balance and even good E2 levels can produce the effects of high E2, even though it’s not. Also, your Insulin levels aren’t driving how your make aromatase, if that were the case everybody Insulin using bodybuilder on the planet would have a serious problem.

I’m actually using Insulin right now while losing more fat, and I keep an eye on everything quarterly, literally no change in E2 levels from my normal E2 management I have in place.

(Edith) #31

This.

Also, once you are fat adapted you will only really need to worry about glycogen replenishment after a tough high intensity workout if you are doing more than one per day. In that case, you would want some carbs after the first one.

#32

Hi Ahmed, you sound fit and healthy- good for you! I wish I’d paid more attention to nutrition at college age. I’m sure I would have got better grades.

If you are keen to prioritise body composition while eating keto, you may find the Ketogains subreddit to be of interest? Heaps of discussion of optimising protein, if and when to re-introduce any carbs, etc: https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/

There are lots of different reasons why people come to keto and stick with it, as I’m sure you know already, ranging from being persuaded by the science, to physical and mental health, to athletic performance, through to even a sort of political or ideological stance about Big Food. I think all of this can be reflected in different recommendations about “optimal” macros and other variables. You just have to take what is helpful for you personally, through your own process of experimentation.

The fact is, if you’re young and fit and athletic, you can probably “get away with” way more carbs than most of us, healthwise. The question is if you have other reasons for eating low carb? For myself, e.g. I feel pretty much fine physically (and have fine blood test results) on a medium carb diet, but it tends to trigger my compulsive, addictive tendencies around food. Same with artificial sweeteners. I try to keep protein high primarily because it helps me feel satiated- again, this is above all, a psychological or emotional motivation for me.

I am sure you will find what works best for you- stay curious, keep asking questions, and enjoy the lack of brain fog during your classes!