Questions about metabolism on different amounts of carbohydrate intake

#1

Obviously too many carbs and ketosis is impossible. Our bodies store fat and we gain weight.

What about just over that amount though? Like 100 carbs a day?

It seems like an active person would still run out of glucose/glycogen at some point, right? So would they dip into ketosis perhaps just before breakfast (assuming they ate dinner at 5pm the night before with nothing in between)?

Also, what about a really high carb diet but calorie restricted for weight loss? Would that kind of person dip into ketosis too, when calories were low?

Finally, what about just extreme exercise? Ketosis for a bit if glucose/glycogen stores are depleted?

Or am I completely misunderstanding this whole thing and all of the above would burn fat but it wouldn’t be what is called “ketosis”?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #2

Read The Art and Science of Low-Carbohyhdrate Living, by Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney. They are the scientists who have done the research, so why not read their explanations of these matters? They have also delivered quite a few lectures on these very questions, and these lectures are all available on YouTube. Check out the Low Carb Down Under channel, the 2 Keto Dudes channel, Dr. Mercola’s channel, the Ancestral Health Channel, among others to find these lectures and interviews by and with Drs. Phinney and Volek.

Forgive me, but these constant questions when you’ve already been given the answers are getting on my nerves. I’m going to mute all the threads you’ve started. Good-bye.

#3

@PaulL

Ouch! Unnecessarily harsh and a tad inaccurate and oversimplified. Fair enough though, if you’re going to be mean then please mute me.

(John) #4

He has a point, as do you. The book he mentions talks about how you get to produce ketones, which happens only when carbohydrates are significantly reduced. For some people that is 100, some is 50 and almost everyone gets there with 20. If you eat more carbs, you stop producing ketones, simple as that. There is some evidence that glucose can be taken up directly by the muscle during and after a workout so there would be limited impact to insulin. Some say it works, others don’t, I am unaware of any studies that prove it.

By how you word things you seem to have a misconception that many do that depletion of glycogen stores triggers ketosis, this is not the case, there is plenty of glucose in our system at almost all times and is used quite a bit by our muscles even when in ketosis. You can only get there by restricting intake.

#5

@jmbundy

Ouch number 2! Double ouch!

Please mute my threads as well if that’s how you feel.

However, it seems inadequate to just mute threads when someone is so annoying that you have to go to their thread and tell them about it lol!

Is there any way that you two could make it so nothing I post shows up on your feed at all? That would be a nice feature to add to the forum if it doesn’t already exist.

(John) #6

I answered your question. If you have a problem with people responding to your repeated, nearly identical questions you could try not posting 20 of them. Or at least pretend to do some sort of research first.

Starting to feel like a trolling.

#7

@jmbundy

Ouch again.

Somewhat inaccurate, decidedly unfair (implying I am trolling?) and ultimately unnecessary (at least in the fashion it is written, could be a lot nicer.) but okay; I will cease posting entirely unless some day in the future I have some confounding question that I cannot find an answer to, but I will try to avoid this.

If nothing else, you both could have worded your posts with a lot more kindness instead of making them overtly rude. I had no idea I was posting anything repetitive and either of you could have told me politely and with kindness instead of insults. I have been nothing but polite to you both and did not mean to annoy or bore anyone with my threads. It is embarrassing enough to realize one has been posting repetitive threads that annoy people and hearing it in rude wording is even worse.

Nonetheless I really appreciate you explaining all that you did in my thread about that study on the effects of ketosis on arteries! You are clearly very well versed on these topics and it was great to learn from your posts, so thanks for that at least!

Goodbye.

(VLC.MD) #8

@Fry … read the book I told you about.

#9

Everyone is different. Try it and see if it works fir you.

(Todd Allen) #10

Fry, I like your questions.

As I understand it metabolically healthy persons eating a typical weight maintenance diet will store and burn a little fat each day. And in the process of burning fat produce trace amounts of ketones. When eating a caloric deficit the balance between storing and burning fat shifts more to burning and ketone levels increase. The rate goes up significantly as liver glycogen depletes and the blood glucose level drops which happens more readily when carbs are restricted. Exercise first depletes muscle glycogen but eventually impacts liver glycogen too.

Phinney and Volek suggest 0.5 mmol/L of blood betahydroxybutyrate as a minimal level to target for those trying to remain in a ketotic state. And that’s what I do. I monitor my ketones levels by blood and breath and adjust my carb intake targeting being in a range of 0.5 to 1.0 mmol/L. Monitoring blood sugar can give one a pretty good sense of it too. For me if my blood sugar mostly stays below 90 mg/dl with post meal surges below 100, I’m probably on target for ketones too. I find I’m eating a lot more carbs than most here do, probably averaging around 35 g net/day though I have fasting days where I eat 0 and days where I’m weight training after a couple days of fasting where I might eat 70 g net.

The frequent comments here about “getting kicked out of ketosis” amuse me. In a year of testing I’ve never dropped below 0.2 mmol/L. My lowest dips have occurred after eating food I didn’t prepare in restaurants or with friends/family and don’t really know how many hidden carbs are lurking in the dishes, though I try hard to avoid anything with flours, refined starch or obviously sweetened. When I drop below 0.5 I get strict on the carbs or just fast and always within a day I’m back above 0.5.

#11

@brownfat

Ah. Very informative and thank you! So you are saying that any time fat is burned a tiny amount of ketones are created? This makes sense to me as the way I understand it, burning fat is necessarily the process of creating at least some ketones. Clearly I need to learn more about it though!

Also, I appreciate you recommending The Great Cholesterol Myth. Got it from the library last week and am very impressed with it.

#12

Good point. I know different people can be in ketosis with wildly different amounts of carbs.

(Todd Allen) #13

It would be incorrect to say any time fat is burned you get ketones as fat can be burned without producing any. But typically you don’t burn much fat without some depletion of glucose which shifts you into producing ketones.

Ketones are produced, mainly in the liver, when the supply of acetyl CoA (from beta oxidation of fatty acids) exceeds the supply of oxaloacetate which is needed to produce citrate from the acetyl CoA and burn it in the citric acid cycle. Oxaloacetate is depleted by gluconeogenesis. As glycogen depletes gluconeogenesis ramps up depleting oxaloacetate increasing the amount of acetyl CoA converted to acetoacetate. Amino acids can also supply oxaloacetate and dietary protein despite driving gluconeogenesis still has an over all suppressive effect on ketogenesis.

Anyway, you will produce ketones eating only carbs and protein and zero fat so long as you have a significant caloric deficit and your insulin level falls low enough to permit sufficient release of fatty acids from adipose tissue. But eating fat makes it sustainable as it doesn’t drive insulin and produces satiety making it easier to not overeat carbs and protein and eating fat eliminates the need for a caloric deficit to drive ketogenesis.

#14

@brownfat

Okay I clearly have a lot to learn! Thanks. So other users have recommended The Art and Science of Low Carb Living. Would these intricacies be explained within?

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #15

Read this blog, it tells you what you need to know, fat burning is the goal not ketosis. Keto just helps you get there faster, once there, it is harder to stop being a fat burner.It is a three part series read them all start here.

#16

@collaroygal

Thanks will do. In my understanding ketones are beneficial in numerous ways and are much more than just a by product of this type of diet. So much so that some would argue that weight loss is a by product of being on a diet with the goal to produce ketones (of course depending on one’s goals and reason for being on the diet).