Question about carbs based on TMAD/OMAD etc

(Niamh) #1

I’m not certain if this has been researched or opined…
I know the general rule 20 carb limit a day and that net and total is up for debate.
But has anyone researched if the carbs can be increased based on some intermittent fasting thrown in the equation?
Would it make a difference? and if so what numbers are thrown around?
Thanks in advance!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

My understanding is that it is a daily limit. The point is to stay below your personal carbohydrate threshold, which is the point at which your insulin becomes elevated and starts causing damage (including the storing of fat). Your carb threshold may actually be higher than 20 g/day, but we recommend starting there, because it gets everybody into ketosis, except people with an exceptional amount of metabolic damage, who will have to limit their carbohydrate intake even more strictly.

Insulin is meant to rise while we eat, so that we can store food energy (in the form of fat) for later, but then it is supposed to fall again, so that the energy becomes available between meals, and especially during the overnight fast. So keeping carbohydrate intake low is part of generally lowering insulin levels. Eating only during a feeding window (i.e., one or two meals a day) and fasting the rest of the time is part of the strategy to keep insulin as low as possible for as much of the day as possible. To undo that by eating more carbohydrate would be counter-productive.

Insulin is a very important hormone, and it does a myriad of jobs throughout the human body. It is so important that we cannot live without a certain amount of it in our blood at all times. (This is why Type I diabetes used to be fatal, before the discovery of insulin.) But chronically elevated insulin causes damage throughout the body, and it is something we want to avoid. A great deal of what makes a ketogenic diet so important for so many people is that it lowers insulin.

(Joey) #3

Picking up on @PaulL’s reply above, if anything, one might speculate that with fewer meals throughout the day sticking to a restricted carb intake becomes even more essential. As he points out, it’s all about tempering the insulin spikes.

I suspect the quality of the carbs has a lot to do with what the “right” number of grams turns out to be for any individual.

Personally, I’ve remained in deep uninterrupted ketosis for a year while often eating about 30 net carbs daily on two meals a day (light lunch/heavy dinner within a 18/6 'ish window). But all of these carbs come from the stray amounts in vegetables, eggs, heavy cream, nuts, etc. - no sugar, bread, potato, rice.

I’d imagine that even a mere 20 grams daily in the form of refined table sugar would have produced a different outcome than the significant benefits I’ve been enjoying. But that’s speculation on my part.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

Table sugar, sucrose, is different from other carbohydrates, in that it is a combination of a glucose molecule and a fructose molecule. Fructose does not stimulate insulin secretion, but it can only be metabolised in the liver (or so I understand), and if the liver gets overloaded on fructose, it accumulates fat deposits and becomes insulin resistant. Fructose also has effects on the brain that mimic those of other addictive substances.

Starches and grains, on the other hand, are just long strings of glucose molecules arranged in different ways. And actually, so is fibre, it just so happens that fibre happens to be indigestible by the human digestive system.

(Joey) #5

So what I hear you saying is that it’s not useful to think that “a carb is a carb is a carb.”

There are meaningful differences in how they arrive into our digestive system (e.g., whole fruit vs. juiced fruit) and the associated molecular structures matter.

When one says “20 grams carb/daily” it’s really just a handy simplification of a number of more complicated factors.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

Bingo! :heart::+1::bacon:

Even more useless is thinking “a calorie is a calorie is a calorie”!!

#7

My body gives me very subtle signs now. Simple sugar may feel very differently from starches… I feel problems way earlier, not real problems just some sugar rush, slight overdose, warning things. Even some sugar way below 20g can feel wrong for half a minute. It can’t cause real problems but I get a reaction. At least if it’s quite pure sugar (like fruits), without lots of protein and fat.
So yeah, carbs are different, it’s logical anyway but surely many of us experience it too.

I never felt anything when I ate non-digestive carbs “galore” (I never was the type to eat huge amounts of erythritol or fiber but I ate some). I can imagine many people do and they should avoid those if they want to do their keto right…

(I still have simply a net carb limit as even carbs which feels okay mess with my satiation and desires. It’s complicated. Being in ketosis isn’t enough for me, I had less than ideal things on keto due to not low enough carbs. By the way, I use the same limit, no matter how big is my eating window, I never noticed I would need a different one.)

#8

Hi, I’m new and I have a question based on Paul’s remarks below:

My question is this: Should I start with a 24-48 hour water fast to get into ketosis, then slowly add in carbs to see what my threshold is? The last time I attempted, it took about 46 hours of water fasting to get into ketosis. Also, my son does keto as WOE and he stated he has to stay between 5 to 10 g carbs/d to stay in ketosis (he’s healthy and 30y). I’m 53yo and I suspect metabolic damage (dx of PCOS). I think I would rather start at zero carbs and add in a gram at time per day than have to start over with another 48 hr fast.

Thanks!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #9

Carbs are not necessary and serve no useful purpose. You can have a healthy, happy and long life if you never ate another molecule of carbohydrate. So why? Your answer to that question will help you figure out what you need to be successful.