Protein intake for ~ age 50+

[VirginiaEdie]

I was reading through the Lyon protocol. Now, admittedly, Gabrielle Lyon looks the way she does (pretty amazing) and I do not, so maybe I should give her suggestions a try, but as a 5’3” female who weights 120 lbs, according to her protocol, I should be getting 120 g of protein a day. Going by your nutrition info for top round, that would be less than a pound a day. And she also suggests keeping the fat low-ish and getting that 120 grams of carbs a day.

I’m wondering about that 120 g of carbs. Would that put me in low carb Pergatory? Too many carbs to burn fat, but not enough carbs to supply my energy needs. Maybe I could just replace those carbs with more protein?

Anyway, the 50g of protein per meal she is recommending, doesn’t mesh with her Lyon Protocol 2.0.

Edit: In her protocol, she gives an example of a good, protein rich breakfast: egg white omelette using egg whites with one whole egg and low fat cheese. Definitely leaning more towards the low fat camp. Sigh.

[RightNOW]

Yeah as noted she is not low carb and she is rather focused on calories and neither of those mesh with my personal mental models. I did however find the focus on skeletal muscle, and the many things it ‘does’ in the body beyond BMR/locomotion, and the higher protein, interesting on their own though.

[anon94382398]

Have you ever tried eating 5-6 small meals a day? A meal every 3 hours.

[PaulL]

I should be getting 120 g of protein a day. Going by your nutrition info for top round, that would be less than a pound a day.

A hundred twenty grams of protein is about 480 grams of meat, which is 17 oz. (a pound is 454.54 g).

[VirginiaEdie]

I was basing that on the nutrition facts posted above by @ctviggen. That was for 16 oz. It came in at 138.7 g of protein. (.7, like measuring food is that precise, lol.)

[PaulL]

like measuring food is that precise, lol.

[Shinita]

(.7, like measuring food is that precise, lol.)

Yeah. It’s not precise at all, surely even the water content changes way more and no way the same cut has exactly the same macros all over the world and for every piece… But lean meat is still quite precise. I eat fatty meat and I just can’t track it as I can’t have much idea about the fat content. But obviously it changes the protein as well.

I often don’t understand people tracking things and worrying over a few grams or a couple of kilocalories as if their tracking could ever be that precise! (And anyway, being close to some somewhat arbitrary numbers isn’t that important. I saw some alarming cases where people even sacrificed their well-being for fixed numbers.)

I always liked the 1-2g/kg (LBM) advice, it sounded good.
I personally am unable to eat this little protein (and I don’t often eat lean meat and I don’t even accept the existence of low-fat dairy… egg whites, I am okay with them. with at least some yolks in the mix, it has the flavor) but as long as someone is fine with excessive amounts, it should be fine.
Obviously it’s not that simple, some people may need a bit more.

I can’t believe in a minimum protein intake per meal, it makes exactly zero sense to me and I won’t eat 300g protein just because I happen to eat 6 meals on IF (I can’t eat tiny meals far apart from each other)… How on earth would I need that much? 100g is more than enough for me per day, why would my body throw it out if it’s not much protein per meal (not like 50g is much but even my SO with his big meals doesn’t eat nearly that much on average and his moderate muscle mass is fine. he is only 42 but I really doubt it would drastically change in some years).
I imagine there are lots of factors, muscle mass, exercise, age, personal things, of course people adore fixed numbers, I never cared about them, maybe that’s my “problem” But many people eat many meals, why would they need to go over some common upper limit for protein just because of this? (@PaulL wrote about some 3.3g/kg limit at least a few times that it usually start to cause problems at this point. It’s probably not a fixed number but everyone has an upper limit, it’s how a human body works. Many of us just can’t go over it under normal circumstances. I typically get satiated way earlier, I never met this limit myself, I can’t even get close for days in row - or maybe I could if I tried hard but if I just eat as much as I can from the food I like, it’s lower. I go way over it occasionally, that’s no problem).

Oh well, eating when I want fortunately always worked for me protein wise and I am quite sure it won’t change in the future. If I ever worry about my protein, that’s eating way too much of it but that’s not a real concern as I tend to eat enough satiating fat as well (I can’t eat low-fat if I try as hard as possible for me. I have the occasional leaner day, that’s it).

[KennyCrox]

She was suggesting more for older people due to less synthesis and less nutrient sensing.

Leucine Intake

Yes, the amount of Protein/Leucine intake need to be more of older individual than younger ones.

Norton’s research indicated that amount of Leucine Per Meal/Serving was 2.5 gram to around 4.5 gram.

Leucine for younger individual needed to be around 2.5 gram of Leucine Per Meal/Serving for Muscle
Protein Synthesis.

Older individual need over 3.0 gram of Leucine Per Meal/Serving to trigger Muscle Protein Synthesis.

Pulse Feeding

This involves larger meals/feeding of Protein Per Meal for older individual. This method ensure older individual were able to obtain enough Protein/Leucine to trigger Muscle Protein Synthesis.

You must not have listened to the show. She was saying it’s not merely about metabolic rate. It’s that the muscles actually proactively DO other things beyond BMR/locomotion.

Rather like how people treated fat cells for a long time like inert luggage only to realize they created all kinds of chemicals which had all kinds of other effects. Same with muscle in a way, is my impression of her points.

No, I Didn’t Listen

I should have listened. I have watch Lyon’s (it’s Lyon, which is confusing) interview and youtube information.

I am somewhat aware that muscle mass and fat elicit some other effect.

My point was in regard to the misunderstanding that increasing muscle mass increase substantially increase Metabolic Rate. It increase Metabolic Rate but not near as much as the majority of people think.

That doesn’t mean eating more frequently would get something not-absorbed, possibly just that it would take longer.

Refractory Period

Research by Wilson, Norton and other determined that optimal Muscle Protein Synthesis occur when the right amount of Protein/Leucine is ingest in the 4 - 6 hour window.

Consuming protein in time periods less more frequently doesn’t mean it isn’t absorbed; it just isn’t triggering Muscle Protein Synthesis optimally.

This takes us back to…

The Sponge Analogy

The more you allow the sponge to dry out, the more the sponge soaks up.

The wetter the sponge is, the less water the sponge going to absorbed.

Medications

Many medication have a Refractory Period.

If a medication is prescribed to be taken once every 6 hours, taking it once every 2 hours isn’t optimal; the medication is less effective.

Kenny Croxdale

[KennyCrox]

I’m not over 50 but I’ve noticed I need more protein because of air pollution.

More Protein for Air Pollution

What research data do you have on this? It makes no sense

believe that isolated fats (oils, butter, cheese, etc…) should be avoided if someone is trying to lose weight because they’ll need much higher protein amounts to offset the already skewed metabolic protein/fat ratio

Calorie Intake

Decreasing calorie intake below maintenance is fundamental to weight loss for every diet.

Ketogenic Diet

Since the largest amount of calories are obtained from fats, this is where calorie need to be decreased, as you stated.

Protein on the other hand increases growth hormone and IGF-1 which have been shown to mobilize fat out of adipose and a greater degree of weight loss.

Protein Intake

Higher protein intake produces satiety and slightly increase Metabolic Rate.

Any increase in growth hormone or IGF-1 is minimal.

Kenny Croxdale

[KennyCrox]

Have you ever tried eating 5-6 small meals a day? A meal every 3 hours.

This is the old Bodybuilding Dogma that isn’t effective for a multitude of reasons.

Kenny Croxdale

[PaulL]

That shouldn’t be necessary on keto, since the meals are so satisfying. It’s a necessity on a high-carb diet, because elevated insulin leaves people feeling hungry all the time.

[anon94382398]

Air pollution causes oxidative stress. Protein is required to increase glutathione and total antioxidant capacity.

https://www.google.com/search?q=total+antioxidant+capacity+protein+intake

Isolated fats are empty calories. Like refined sugar. Amino acids, vitamins and minerals need to come from somewhere else to process them.

I’ve lost the most white adipose tissue eating many very small high protein low fat/carb meals a day and noticed this increased my metabolic rate but lost muscle mass because I eventually started exercising from the increased metabolic activity and lack of calories(fat/carbs). I don’t consider protein a source of calories.

It has nothing to do with satiaty. It’s easier to digest small meals and probably burns more calories digesting many small meals opposed to digesting 3 big meals.

[KennyCrox]

https://www.google.com/search?q=total+antioxidant+capacity+protein+intake

Direct Link

This link lead to no nowhere. It does not directly supports your premise.

The link is more about " high protein and high total antioxidant capacity is strongly associated with low prevalence of frailty among old Japanese women"

It appears that you are extrapolating information that isn’t there; you are guessing.

Guessing is never good.

I’ve lost the most white adipose tissue eating many very small high protein low fat/carb meals a day and noticed this increased my metabolic rate but lost muscle mass because I eventually started exercising from the increased metabolic activity and lack of calories(fat/carbs). I don’t consider protein a source of calories.

Deficit Calories

You’re weight loss was due to consuming calories below you maintenance level.

No matter how many or how few meals you consume, if you eat less you lose weight.

Smaller, Multiple Meals

The ISSN, International Society of Sports Nutrition, determined that consuming more meals a day does not increase you Metabolic Rate.

The downside to consuming more meals a day is it actually counterproductive to burning body fat.

“Insulin is a fat maker and Glucagon is a fat take”
Jay Robb, Nutritionist

Anytime you consume a meal with protein and carbohydrates, insulin levels increase.

Glucagon is one of the fat burning hormones.

An increase in insulin blocks glucagon, which blocks the fat burning process.

Insulin promotes body fat storage. That is one of the reason that individual are Insulin Resistant, low weight on lower carbohydrate diet.

Protein Has NO Calories?!

You need do more homework.

It has nothing to do with satiety. It’s easier to digest small meals and probably burns more calories digesting many small meals opposed to digesting 3 big meals.

Satiety

One of the issues with obesity is the over consumption of calories.

One of the greatest benefits of Protein is that is quells hunger.

One of Dr. Mike T. Nelson’s recommendations for his obese clients is, “When hungry consume some protein.”

Smaller Meals Do NOT Burn More Calories!

To reiterate, Dr John Berardi, PhD Nutrition, et al., in the International Society of Sports Medicine dispelled this misinformation.

The dogma regarding consuming multiple meals a day to increase Metabolic Rate is one of the old Bodybuilding myths that continue to be perpetuated by individual, such as yourself.

It is what Bodybuilder refer to as…

"Bro-Science"

This is empirical data based on practical experience over decades.

Some of the Bro-Science has been determined by research to be true.

Some of the research on the Bro-Science has proven to be incorrect.

The case in point is, “Consuming more meal per day increases your Metabolic Rate”, which it does not. It actually increase body fat storage.

Secondly, the issue with smaller means indicates that not enough protein is being consumed to produce Muscle Protein Synthesis.

Research by Dr Donald Layman determined the majority of American only one out of three meals in a day provide enough protein to maintain and/or increase muscle mass. That meal is dinner.

Not enough protein is ingested with breakfast nor lunch to trigger Muscle Protein Synthesis.

That is one of the reason, as individual age, they loose muscle mass; they aren’t consuming enough protein at two of the normal three meals per day.

Having smaller, more frequent meals per day exacerbates the issue of not obtaining enough protein to maintain, let alone increase muscle mass.

Kenny Croxdale

[KennyCrox]

That shouldn’t be necessary on keto, since the meals are so satisfying.

For the most part, that is true.

It’s a necessity on a high-carb diet, because elevated insulin leaves people feeling hungry all the time.

Exactly, since carbohyrates trigger hunger.

Kenny Croxdale

[Shinita]

That shouldn’t be necessary on keto, since the meals are so satisfying. It’s a necessity on a high-carb diet, because elevated insulin leaves people feeling hungry all the time.

Maybe it’s true in general but surely there are zillion exceptions. High-carb can keep people very well satiated all day. Carb are just as satiating to some as other macros. They actually make me hungry but high-carb still makes OMAD super easy for me, it would just be a bad idea for other reasons. Protein and fat satiate me on high-carb but the hunger inducing carbs make me easily able to eat an OMAD sized meal that keeps me well satiated for a day.
And 6 meals on carnivore is a thing for me while I always had only 2 natural proper meals, even if I had others, they were tiny, snack-like alibi meals most of the time. I never had many meals until carnivore and it’s rare even there especially as time passes and my body gets used to things but carnivore too easily triggers easy satiation in my case and then I can’t help but eating many tiny meals (or eating some very dense food but that’s not always fun). In every 1-2 hours, though, I can’t last 3 hours unless I eat substantial meals. A cute, 1000-1400 kcal lunch may last for 3 hours, a way smaller one can’t. My SO eats 1000 kcal almost pure carb and is satiated for 9 hours while running and doing physical work but he is an anomaly… I need my meals close (but with rare exceptions because carnivore is just different from anything else and I experience things I never did before).

I can imagine some people do need 6 not tiny meals on keto. Maybe they are not good with big meals but they have a high energy need. But such cases are probably quite rare, I think that too.

[anon94382398]

This link lead to no nowhere. It does not directly supports your premise.

There’s no premise. Carbs and fats can’t increase antioxidant capacity. Therefore it’s only protein left and whichever vitamins which are produced from amino acids that act as antioxidants.

Recently, the applicability and scientific appropriateness of the TAC concept have been debated due to the fact that plasma TAC may be affected by plasma protein, uric acid and antioxidant enzymes rather than by antioxidant nutrients and their metabolites directly originating from diets.
https://doi.org/10.1017/S0007114511000109

You’re weight loss was due to consuming calories below you maintenance level.

No matter how many or how few meals you consume, if you eat less you lose weight.

CICO is BS. Someone can eat Omega fatty acids as their main source of calories with a calorie deficit and still not lose weight because of the thermogenic effect of prostaglandins. Hence less calories are required.

Same thing with growth hormone. Someone with zero adipose tissue and eating one meal a day will require less protein because the elevated growth hormone levels maintain positive nitrogen balance. Adipose adipokines inhibit growth hormone release.

Smaller, Multiple Meals

The ISSN, International Society of Sports Nutrition, determined that consuming more meals a day does not increase you Metabolic Rate.

The downside to consuming more meals a day is it actually counterproductive to burning body fat.

“Insulin is a fat maker and Glucagon is a fat take”
Jay Robb, Nutritionist

Anytime you consume a meal with protein and carbohydrates, insulin levels increase.

I said I lost weight consuming many very small meals high in protein and “low” in fat/carbs… every 3 hours. It did increase my metabolic rate because I started getting the urge to be active instead of half dead on the couch digesting a big meal.

Glucagon is one of the fat burning hormones.

It’s not Glucagon that drives fat burning directly. Glucagon stimulates growth hormone which then drives lipolysis and ketogenesis.

Insulin promotes body fat storage. That is one of the reason that individual are Insulin Resistant, low weight on lower carbohydrate diet.

Fat metabolism =/= ketogenesis(ketone production).

Insulin resistance only occurs in those eating a low carb high saturated fat diet. It doesn’t occur in those who consume one pescetarian/nutivore type meal a day rich in unsaturated fat and are physically active. The goal is insulin sensitivity.
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3942972/)
https://drfionand.com/2018/01/21/walnuts-affect-insulin/

Protein Has NO Calories?!

According to the Internet… it requires up to 30% of calories to digest protein while virtually no calories to digest fats/carbs.

Since you believe protein can be burnt as a main source of calories in humans. Why does protein poisoning occur in humans but not in obligate carnivores?

Satiety

One of the issues with obesity is the over consumption of calories.

Why do they overconsume calories in the first place?

Secondly, the issue with smaller means indicates that not enough protein is being consumed to produce Muscle Protein Synthesis.

Research by Dr Donald Layman determined the majority of American only one out of three meals in a day provide enough protein to maintain and/or increase muscle mass. That meal is dinner.

Not enough protein is ingested with breakfast nor lunch to trigger Muscle Protein Synthesis.

That is one of the reason, as individual age, they loose muscle mass; they aren’t consuming enough protein at two of the normal three meals per day.

Having smaller, more frequent meals per day exacerbates the issue of not obtaining enough protein to maintain, let alone increase muscle mass.

I can sit on my ass, consume more than enough protein and gain muscle mass?

This is a pretty good article…https://www.verywellfit.com/muscle-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-growth-4148337

[Shinita]

I said I lost weight consuming many very small meals high in protein and “low” in fat/carbs… every 3 hours. It did increase my metabolic rate because I started getting the urge to be active instead of half dead on the couch digesting a big meal.

I understand your point better now! But just because it worked for you, it may cause the opposite for others. If I want to lose fat, I better go for one, maybe 2 meals…
Meals lowers my willingness to do exercise, I always make sure I am very well-fasted for my strenuous activities, a small meal is just as bad as a big one for me. Obviously everyone is different regarding this, I have lowish energy all the time (I almost never feel any urge to be active except some walks) but it’s highest when I am well-fasted. People simply should arrange their exercise and meals around each other to get the best result.

But I understand it was just a tip that may or may not work and you experienced that it’s possible to work. Indeed, some people works best with many meals just like some works best with one a day except when it’s zero. Goals, energy need, personal things matter a lot. Not everyone can eat tiny meals, no one in my family can pull it off (just me in the rare super effective carnivore satiation times and it annoys me very much).