Protein intake and ammonia taste / smell?

protein
(Jack Bennett) #1

Sometimes when I have a high protein meal following a daily fast, I’ll notice a taste of ammonia in my mouth a couple of hours later. Web research of this suggests it’s related to deamination and oxidation of protein for energy. It’s possibly also associated with dehydration as some of the articles I’ve seen relate to extended endurance exercise.

As an example, a few days ago on a road trip I fasted until around noon and then ate the following:

  • whey protein shake with almond milk
  • 4 hard boiled eggs
  • two sticks of string cheese

This meal was fairly high protein: probably 80-85g of protein. Around 2-4 hours later I noticed the “ammonia taste” symptom.

Conversely, I fasted the following day until after 5pm and noticed no ammonia taste. So it’s probably not related to fasting/ketosis per se - it seems to be specifically protein related. Has anybody else experienced similar effects?

(Bob M) #2

I wonder if it’s the whey protein? Could you eat a meal with the same protein, by substituting something for the whey? Maybe egg white protein or lean beef or shrimp or mussels (I’m trying to think of “similar” proteins in leanness)?

I can get a slight ammonia taste sometimes, but for me, it’s way more protein than you’re eating.

Whey is a very fast-absorbing protein. See this for instance:

So, I’m thinking you’re getting too much protein too quickly. Eating something like egg protein could test this theory.

(Jack Bennett) #3

That makes a lot of sense.

TMAD 85g x 2 = 170g is a fairly high protein intake compared to average people, but not compared to a lot of carnivore or keto daily intakes. So an 85g meal isn’t crazy high.

I think absorption is a likely factor. Especially since I have noticed this more when I’ve had just whey powder + almond milk (or water) rather then when I add more fat. (The theory would be that the fat slows down the digestion of the whey.)

(Jack Bennett) #4

From the article:

For example, whey protein leaves your stomach about 4 times faster than casein protein[*]. One study of lean, healthy young men found a gastric emptying rate of approximately 45 grams per hour after drinking whey protein[*].

Adding carbs or fats significantly slows down the digestion of whey protein, but the same is not true of casein protein[*].

Whereas blood amino acids peak about an hour and a half after whey consumption, casein takes 6-7 hours or longer to absorb fully[*].

It’s likely that the whey is responsible for this rapid response: the shake contains 45-50g of fast-digesting whey protein. Probably I will be able to reduce this effect by eating meat or more egg protein, or by having a bit more fat with the meal.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #5

You are probably overwhelming your uric acid cycle with too much protein. The labile pool can hold only so much amino acid; excess beyond that has to be dumped. For this, the amino acids are usually deaminated, though amino acids can also be excreted in the urine (proteinuria).

I’d say that if you are smelling ammonia after a lot of protein, you should cut back. On these forums, we recommend protein consumption in the range of 1.0-1.5 g protein/kg lean body mass/day, though some experts recommend up to 2.0 g/kg. Around 3.0 is where a lot of people start to have trouble, apparently, and you don’t want to risk ammonia toxicity.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #6

Agreed! The scent of ammonia would be the sign to slack off. No matter the specific source. And… we’re all slightly different so self-observation required. For a couple of years-plus my protein macro was based on 1.8 gr/kg total body weight. I recently upped it to 2.3 because I started craving more protein. Don’t know why. Maybe my job a Walmart is finally starting to make some muscle? The protein craving has gone away. I still have lots of energy and am maintaining overall weight even though I have been eating 400-500 less total calories per day, mostly because of my work schedule and just running out of time to eat.

#7

Correct, it’s just too much protein. I get that when I go on bulks and crank it up real high. If I go over around 250g a day that can start happening but being properly hydrated more or less makes it barely noticeable. 85g of protein in a sitting especially something like whey that burns real fast is pretty hard to absorb in the amount of time it has. Supplementing with L-Ornithene helps that as well. But unless you’re intentionally doing real high protein it’s really not needed.

You could also use digestive aids which I recommend to everybody all the time anyways. Much better absorption with them.

(Robin) #8

Just drinking more water can help.

(Jack Bennett) #9

Yeah, it really seems to be the type of protein - whey = rapid absorbing - and the fact that it’s easy to drink it really fast (50g in protein shake vs 50g in steak or fish, for example).

Another factor is that my shake didn’t have much else in it - just a little fat from the almond milk. I haven’t noticed this effect when I add more fat (e.g. egg yolks or heavy cream).

TMAD would lead to 85x2 = 170g which is high but not unheard of (probably on the low side for athletes, for example). As others have suggested here, I don’t think it’s the absolute amount of protein but rather the fast absorption rate that caused this effect.

#10

If it’s a concentrate there will be a little fat in there, if it’s an isolate not so much, but if you’re working out you want it that way. If it’s just for protein supplementation in general and not around working out go with a Casein protein. Much slower.

(Jack Bennett) #11

That sounds like it might be worth trying. I also have a couple of plant-based protein powders that I was experimenting with but they don’t taste very good. Pea protein in particular is nasty.

My main goal is to increase protein intake (overall grams per day and fraction of calories). The intention is to have greater satiety with less energy intake via protein leverage. Given this, a slower absorbing protein would probably be even better. Using whey was more out of convenience and economy because it’s easiest to find and there’s more choice and price competition among brands.

#12

Ya, all the plant based proteins are gross, plus you don’t absorb as much of them. Redcon1’s MRE Lite is animal based proteins and taste pretty good if you wanted to get rid of dairy but casein is pretty good as well, always a part of my many tubs of protein.

(Jack Bennett) #13

I got a single two-pound bag of 50/50 rice and pea protein - a custom blend from TrueNutrition. It’s taken me a long time to use it up because I have to mix it at least half-and-half with whey protein (for the taste). I’m about done with it though, and won’t be getting any more. I will probably look into casein, although it will be more expensive than the big whey bags from Costco.

I think I’ll be fine as long as I drink these shakes along with a real meal to slow down the absorption. I use the same shake recipe along with a regular lunch when I’m at home and hadn’t noticed this effect under those circumstances.

I suspect the reason why this effect was so noticeable the other week was a combination of dehydration (road trip, drinking coffee and not a lot of water) and eating minimal other food along with the protein shake.