Probiotics: actual food vs supplements?

(Martin) #1

What’s your opinion guys?

Seems to me that a lot of people with high and sudden probiotic intake (me included) quickly develop a bacterial imbalance (duh?!:D), which is then fixed by carnivore diet coupled with slowly increasing dosage of the likes of sauerkraut or kimchi. Why not just slowly build up your micro-biome with probiotic foods in the first place?

I understand that some people find relief by taking additional probiotic supplements, but since there are so many of the bacteria to “really” know which ones are you supposed to be adding/killing and since upsetting the precious balance gets them crazy, even turn them bad - maybe these people just get lucky to consume the right mix for their gut, makes them better, but for how long?

I’m starting to find even pre-biotic supplements a little questionable, since giving more food to your bacteria (even healthy ones) just makes them happy to multiply and grow, but how do you know when to stop? When you get bloated again and have to go back to carnivore diet?:smiley:

I feel like, with the rising popularity of probiotics, that they could be causing more harm than good, in the long run.

What’s your take guys?

(Bob M) #2

At one time, I tried prebiotics (potato starch, tons of others), along with tons of different probiotics, including the so-called (at the time) “miracle” soil-based probiotics. I could find no benefits for me, only detriments. I also tried the Wheat Belly probiotic yogurt. Again, no benefit I could discern.

And don’t get me started about this area. You can’t test anything: take two samples from two different parts of your “poop”, send to the same lab, get two different results; take same sample, send to two different labs, get two different results; they had people swallow a pill to record bacteria, and gave people probiotics, and while their poop indicated those probiotics, the pill did not.

Anyway, I now just use foods containing probiotics, if I like them and they don’t seem to have a bad effect on me. Pickles seem to be OK, but I’m not sure about sauerkraut.

I’ve reached the conclusion that your biome will adapt to whatever you eat. Siobhan Huggins had a biome test done (she’s carnivore), and the test came back with a high variety of bacteria, which is supposedly “good”.

Also, while it may be possible to adjust your biome, you can’t accurately test it, and there’s no way to know what you’re doing is “good” or “bad” (and I hypothesize it’s probably neither, it just simply “is”) without that. (And even if you could get an accurate biome test, who is to say one bacteria is “good” and one “bad”. I know people say this, but I’m hesitant to agree.)

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #3

I don’t remember the source, but I remember reading fairly recently a line to the effect that the problem with identifying a marker of health is that it leads us to try to manipulate the marker instead of working to maintain good health. My belief is that it is far too early in our understanding of what our intestinal bacteria are and do, for us to be trying to manipulate them for specific outcomes. I also suspect that the researchers may be confusing cause and effect, or may be assuming that correlations indicate causality because they aren’t aware enough of possible confounders in their data.

Has anyone done an RCT on the differences between the intestinal bacteria of carb burners and those of ketonians and those of carnivores? That might tell us something, even if that something is that our intestinal bacteria are irrelevant.

Our ancestors managed to survive two million years of evolutionary adaptation without being aware of a single intestinal bacterium. From that, I think the conclusion is obvious.

(Bob M) #4

Paul, I agree with everything you said.

The only thing I’d be concerned about is that a lot of us (including me) probably screwed up their biome. Looking back, I likely had SIBO (small intestinal bacterial overgrowth). That MAY have been why prebiotics didn’t work for me, as this encourages bacterial growth where it shouldn’t be.

I think this is why a lot of us gravitate toward carnivore. While I’ve never been fully carnivore, over time, I have begun to eat a lot of mainly or only meat-based meals. I think what this does is effectively kill off all of the “bad” bacteria or bacteria where it shouldn’t be. Fasting I’m sure helped that too (nothing for the bacteria to “eat”). My lunch today was fully carnivore, and that’s normal now, though I will add olives and the like at times.

I know Dr. Davis from Wheat Belly has materials directed to SIBO, and I do think these probably help.

So, while I’m not a big fan of trying to modify the “biome”, maybe there are targeted efforts, like the one from Dr. Davis, that could work for certain people?

As for SIBO, see this:

(Joey) #5

My understanding: Introducing lactobacillus (the anaerobic bacteria produced through fermentation) into your digestive system in large numbers too quickly causes gas (CO2). Not harmful, but perhaps uncomfortable (and embarrassing?)

And so, eating a few forkfuls for the first few days when you’re new to fermented veggies (real sauerkraut/pickles, kimchi) before piling it on in large portions addresses this by avoiding an overabundance prior to your other gut biome guests adapting accordingly.

[Note: store-bought sauerkraut and pickles are typically accelerated in their acidic “sourness” through the use of vinegar - and therefore have little if any live lactobacillus unlike your home-fermented equivalents).]

I reached the same conclusion - albeit without any relevant data whatsoever :wink:

(Bob M) #6

It’s tough to know. I’ve had both Bubbies pickles and sauerkraut, both of which are naturally fermented. Both are “clean” (the sauerkraut = just cabbage and salt). The pickles seem to have no effect, though I’m sure it’s possible to eat too many too quickly. The sauerkraut (the last time I had it, anyway) seems to cause me issues. I’m not sure why. Something in cabbage that’s not in cucumbers?

(Martin) #7

Exactly my point and I absolutely agree!:slightly_smiling_face:

Here in Europe, sauerkraut has always been considered super healthy. It’s part of many traditional meals and your typical grandmother would always have a few jars in the larder.

(Joey) #8

Interesting… FWIW, it typically takes me about 2 weeks to get my sauerkraut fermented to satisfaction (lots of CO2 released early on, but slowly dropping pH over the course of 2 weeks), whereas my pickles go quickly in about 4-5 days, with much less if any noticeable CO2 bubbling.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the pickling spices - which is where much of the flavor is coming from - produce a different kind of bacterial population than the sauerkraut, which is produced simply by the cabbage and a little salt. The salt isn’t even all that critical as I’ve successfully made less salty versions to appease my wife’s palate.

My guess: The lactobacillus population in my sauerkraut is much larger per bite than that of my pickles - although both are equally delicious in their own ways.

(Bob M) #9

You may be correct.

As for my own fermenting, I’m trying another batch of pickles this weekend. The ones I just did were too spicy for me. Since I ate so few, it was hard to tell whether they upset my stomach/digestion or not. I ate a huge one, and it MIGHT have. But with so few tests, I can’t tell.

Once I dial in the pickles, I’ll try sauerkraut.

I also wonder if where you ferment affects things? Maybe the Bubbies pickles and sauerkraut are fermented in two different locations? (The labels do not say where they are fermented.)

At least for me, I’ll be in the same location, so that eliminates that variable.

(Martin) #10

Yes, I heard that many times in different versions. It used to be the doctors were prescribing healthy lifestyle and prevention over fixes (to fixes, to fixes,…). There is a saying around here that once the doctors have you in their grasps, there is no escaping an illness - they will always find “something”.:grin:

Exactly. Many doctors seem to be very sceptical towards probiotics, entirely based on our limited understanding. There is some data, but far from enough.

Well, they say the carnivore diet helps the people with gut issues the best. It could be entirely observational - people stop complaining about bloating and pain, so I don’t know. Still, carnivore with slow introduction of probiotic foods that increases all the time seems to be the leading treatment in gut issues. So my guess is, the best is mostly carnivore with some veggies to which we have to condition ourselves. Berg can eat his 10 cups of salad every day, but who knows how long it took him to get there?

(Martin) #11

Well, you know, I think this is one of those things that have to get worse before they get better. Myself, I was never big on veggies (no gut issues) then I start eating veggies and slowly, I’m getting worse and worse. There was some interesting research into gut bacteria biofilms and how the bacteria causes damage as it dies. I think carnivore eases the dying and the inflammation, but to keep making the gut healthier we need to eat the animal produce as well as variety of vegetables - food for the bacteria.:thinking:

Haha, so true! I always seem to learn these things the hard way. :sweat_smile:

#12

Here’s my thought on gut health. I consistently do extended water fasting, usually 30 days or so. There is a necessary refeeding process to re-introduce food again for 10-15 days. The logic behind it is that the natural biome is now compromised and small amounts of a scheduled variety of foods “wakes up” your digestion again. I do keto or sometimes LCHF in between fasts.

Come to find out, when I introduced dairy to my refeeding after a 30 day, my belly bloated, my nose got congested, and overall I did not feel well. This is how I found out I was lactose intolerant, for all these years I never knew! By re-introducing various foods one at a time, a person can find out what I their body responds well to - or does not. I would also say that EF will help “re-set” any gut issues. Prayer and fasting (including electrolytes and salt) has healed me of diabetes, neuropathy and high bp, and while I never lose weight on keto, I continue to eat that way because of the health and nutritional benefits between fasts.

(Martin) #13

Great that the fasting is working out for you, Clare!:slight_smile:

As I understand lactose intolerance, it is basically a certain lack of enzymes that break lactose, which means that you could potentially slowly build up those enzymes with dairy low in sugars, also foods like seaweed and miso soup? In your case, it would make sense that your body is reacting this way - it could just be that it’s too low in the enzymes.

I think that maybe considering your symptoms, nose congestion after digesting dairy, you could actually have milk allergy, which I hear that can be eased down by adding antihistamines to the diet, depending on the severity. Have you perhaps tried this?

(Ohio ) #14

When I had gastritis, both worked for me. The more variety the better. Never overdue it.

John G Herron’s book: “ The Gut Health Protocol“ changed my life.

#15

Well I’m pretty sure it’s genetic, since when I told my mother, she admitted that she has been lactose intolerant for years, and takes a “cheese pill” whenever she eats dairy. My daughter and both grandchildren also have it, I just thought it had skipped me, since I’d been eating yogurt, butter and various cheeses throughout my life. But, I have also had mild constant symptoms of it too, but didn’t realize what it was. Fasting then reintroducing dairy brought it home for me. My body doesn’t want it. My thoughts are, if it’s acting like poison to my body, why eat it, and then throw an “antidote” in after it? My grandchildren and daughter use the enzymes and still have some issues afterwards, which yes, might also be from other allergies they have. But especially with all the wonderful non-dairy products out today, I’ll just pass. And oh, I’ve always been a fan of seaweed in all it’s forms, and breakfast almost everyday before I went Keto, was a good granola and even better quality natural yogurt. Seems like if that was supposed to help build up the enzymes, it would have?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #16

My impression is that building up lactase (the enzyme that breaks down lactose) is not possible for a lot of people. The human default is to cease lactase production at some point between weaning and adulthood, and I don’t believe it’s possible to “train” the body to start producing it again.

There are, however, two known mutations that allow certain people to continue producing lactase and thus digest lactose: one occurred in the Maasai of Africa, the other in the population of Northern Europe. Anyone with ancestors from either of these populations is likely to be able to continue producing lactase in adulthood.

Then there is also the whole issue of sensitivity to certain milk proteins, which is a completely different issue, but which also makes it difficult for some people to tolerate dairy, even if they can digest lactose.