PKD diet

(Saskia) #1

Hello, I’m new to this forum and interested in chatting with anyone doing PKD diet. I’ve been carnivore for 5yrs and recently switched to PKD protocol. Carnivore left me having constant fat hunger and fatigued and cancer runs in my family so I wanted to try preventative measures. I’m doing the exact protocol for the diet and currently fine tuning my meat/fat ratio. I would love some advice, so far slowly reducing my protein which is currently between 70 grams. I think it’s still too much so dropping it to 60 today.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #2

Other than ‘cancer in the family’, you’ve said nothing about yourself. With that upfront, unless you are very small, 70 grams of protein is not much - reducing it to 60 doesn’t make sense to me. Anyway, you may find the following discussion of interest:

(Bob M) #3

Have you noticed a benefit to eating higher (animal) fat? Amber O’Hearn advocates this, says it provides a ton of energy.

I’m personally more of a fan of higher protein, but I’m also lifting to failure about 2 hours each week.

To address the cancer issue, I’m trying to fast 36 hours when I can, and try to fast 4.5 days every once in a while. Also, eating intermittently should help. That is, two meals a day is better than more meals. Compressing the time (my next test) to eating those meals in fewer hours should help too.

(Jane) #4

What is the PKD diet and what do you eat on it?

(Jane) #6

You ask for advice w/o giving any details and you call someone an asshole for asking for them to be able to provide an opinion? Look in the mirror is my advice.

#7

red flag which to me means if you are 5 yrs in on carnivore you are ‘somehow controlling’ your food intake and not naturally eating all you need or all that is required to make a normal change to your metabolism and your personal eating needs.

Yes, we can manipulate and control carnivore but it always works against us. All long term people will tell you that. One must eat, and not by some kcal calc. or some pant size you want to hit or a number on scale to be truly changing your body thru the healing it needs.

Alot of info not available on you and your journey. I am heading into 5 yrs in and I am so in tune with me I just follow what the body wants to eat and have gained so many benefits I can’t even list them, but darn a few are still on my ‘dieting goal list’ which I pretend is a real thing in my life HA but in the end, PKD is normally ALL about a medical issue as a protocol to truly help a person so? Not sure if you are one who needs PKD or not? Not sure if PKD is ‘an answer’ against whatever your normal ZC menu actually is or if you are all that strict or not? So alot of ifs on what answer I could give you :slight_smile:

If you said that BS to Michael on his response then you sure are gonna call me worse probably. Sorry but if you want real response then real truths on your ‘zc plan’ has to be known.

Yikes, I hope you aren’t a scary poster :wink: With 5 yrs in I assume you are on many ZC sites and know what answers they would give if you posted that post in them :wink:

Something seems off to me on it all but it is your journey tho!

#8

We actually have a PKD protocol thread running and a few were all in on it…alot of info there to read. PKD is for a select few who truly ‘require being there’ thru tough med issues and more. PKD is not a game to be played unless one finds themselves truly needing to be here.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

I wouldn’t say that 70 g of protein is too low for someone on keto, it would depend on how much lean mass they have. But definitely, for someone eating carnivore, 114 g of protein a day (or more) is much more like it.

@SaskiaV Firstly, welcome to the forums! Here are some thoughts about your post:

  • “Constant fat hunger and fatigue” sounds as though you might not have been eating enough protein on your carnivore diet. Fat alone won’t satisfy us until we’ve eaten enough protein. Instead of lowering your protein, you might try increasing it.

  • But as Michael says, if you’d like to give us information about yourself (age, sex, weight, height, etc.) and what you’re eating (a representative few days of meals), we’d be happy to go over what you are eating and give you some advice.

  • As for cancer, I don’t know what connection you have drawn between eating carnivore and cancer running in your family. The articles I’ve seen about how meat causes cancer don’t seem to hold up when I look at them, and several recent papers that drew publicity have been debunked by various scientists. My own view is that, since the human race evolved over two million years eating mostly or exclusively meat, so far as we can tell, it would be extremely surprising if meat were bad for us. There is, in fact, archaeological evidence to suggest that the advent of agriculture was a significant blow to human health. There is at least one respected researcher, Dr. Thomas Seyfried, who has come to believe that all cancers are caused by metabolic damage from too much glucose, i.e., dietary carbohydrate. He may well be right; his argument is quite plausible, and his proposed mechanism for the damage makes a lot of sense. And if he is right, then a low-carb, or even better, a no-carb diet, might well be the most protective against cancer.

You will naturally need to make up your own mind about all of this, and we look forward to hearing about your progress.

(Edith) #10

I considered trying PKD several years ago for joint trouble, but the quantity of food they recommend is only 500g a day. That was just not enough food for me. The other problem I had is that they want their patients to eat brain. I have heard it is tasty, but not only can I not get it where I live, but I’m too afraid of mad cow disease.

I think if you don’t have a medical issue you are trying to cure, you may want to stick with straight carnivore and actually up the amount you are eating. That will definitely help with the hunger and fatigue. You can always keep it on the higher fat range similar to PKD to keep it more therapeutic.

#11

we have an OLD PKD thread running but I think got abandoned but there is tons of info in that thread.

and yes, PKD is not a toy ever for ‘some type of thing’ to try if carnivore isn’t ‘working for you in some’ way so…

PKD is real for some. It is not a game and not to be trifled with in any way if one wants real movement forward and doesn’t truly require one to be here…but the ‘internet BS abounds?’ ugh

Most carnivores never even think PKD. We check it out, learn about it, but know in our hearts we don’t ever require this strict tough and protocol to cover our needs.

PKD is special and no one should play in it truly.

#12

PKD usually advises even less protein than that, somewhere between 50-60g of protein a day for most people. It’s not a calorie restricted diet, you can eat as much fat as you want - preferably from grass fed 4-legged animals.
It’s common to eat 50g protein and 100g fat per day (2:1 ratio), or 50g protein and 150g fat per day (3:1 ratio).
If you have excess body fat, then it’s also normal to be getting a lot of this daily fat for energy from your own body, so you don’t have to eat as much fat until you normalize weight.

The ‘strict’ version of PKD, which has no vegetables, is actually easier to do long term in my opinion because you feel the best and remove all addictive and harmful substances. Pretty much any carnivore or zero carb diet is ‘extreme’ to an average person, a lot of people balk at PKD because it means giving up the last addicting substances they use as a crutch (dairy/caffeine), just like they were doing before zerocarb/carnivore with even worse substances. Giving up these crutches seems impossible at first, and then you just do it - just like people who gave up grains/carbs/chocolate/etc. What you use to fill the void once you go completely substance-addiction-free (strict PKD) is simply a richer more connected life - which you are more able to cultivate and grow due to the increased energy you will have.

(Edith) #13

Are you using the PKD? If so, would you be willing to let us know why and if it’s helped?

#14

I use a modified version of PKD - with a desiccated beef liver/brain supplement as my ‘multivitamin’, occasionally a fish oil supplement as well. All from sources with no fillers/binders/additives/etc. It’s not nearly as good as eating the organs intact but it’s better than not eating organs at all and convenient for me. PKD doesn’t condone supplements because something seemingly harmless in them such as rice flour or a hundred other things can upset your gut and also you never really know how much nutrient loss happens in the desiccation process, it’s much more expensive than just eating organs too. Everything else is pretty much strict-PKD as I only eat 100% grass fed beef, 100% grass fed tallow, a little bit of plain salt, and spring water. I’m not trying to recover from a disease, just perform better at my programming job. It’s kind of like a Silicon Valley startup situation, whereas elite athletes will have specific workout regimens, some nerds will eat a certain way to get an edge. Just being able to only sleep 4-5 hours a night and be completely rested, increased energy with no energy swings, not having to spend a lot of time preparing/eating meals, far less bathroom trips, etc. is a great help for productivity.
Personally I believe one of the main benefits is derived from only eating as much protein as our bodies need and not more - usually up to around 50-60g a day. I might be eating too much protein still and not know it, but 5-10g more than I need is a much different situation than 25-50g more than I need, at least that’s the hypothesis.
Virtually all people are addicted to substances in their daily meals - just because you decide to go carnivore or zero carb doesn’t mean that you’re not still an addict looking for a fix - you’ll get it from dairy, caffeine, cheating with chocolate or anything carb based, occasional or daily excess protein converted into glucose, etc. In my view if you aren’t very careful to stay away from all of these addiction triggers, then you will just adapt a healthier, but still bound-to-fail diet full of chemical reminders to overeat and try and derive pleasure from the act of eating the food, rather than derive pleasure from the wellbeing given by the act of not eating more than you need.
I tried dieting several times before this WOE and the main thing that helped was the mental switch of eating not for pleasure, ever, as it’s always a gateway into worse behavior. You also need the general awareness and knowledge of what an addiction-free carnivore diet is and PKD helps here because the nutrient density in 4-legged grass fed animals is higher compared to poultry and fish, so it’s the easiest way to get what you need in less volume and hassle.

#15

Remember there is the ‘PKD Diet’ and then there is the ‘adopted PKD diet for carnivore protocol’

ZC is a fab plan for those who require it. Simple as that. It is very hard to ‘learn’ thru trial and error this is ‘where you must be’ to be your best well being in life and getting the best health results. No doubt in my mind on that, I walked this path :slight_smile:

Life is hard when changing and there is a TON OF issues that no one will ever understand in anothers life thru mental issues thru childhood to ?? or chemical issues with more real medical issues effecting someone…but darn we all ‘’‘try’’’ best we can and with luck and proper good eating that suits us personally, we get there. Might take a short path for one or a heck of a longer path for others.

There is NO perfect menu to fit all, not talking physical food for the body which rocks best, I am talking the mental game in it all thru our lifestyles and personality and stress issues and more.

I used to think our food was very black. Eat this fine. Nope, there is SO many tons of shades of gray in our lives, we all must find us in it at all times and take the best way forward.

Most carnivores know inherently that beef and heavy ruminents are key for life. No doubt on that, the fowl, fish and seafood are ‘sides’ to the heavy hitters :slight_smile: So agree.

enjoyed reading your post

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #16

PKD? What exactly are we talking about? This:

Or this:

Thanks.

#17

Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet, originating from Paleomedicina clinic in hungary - terrible name, doctors came up with it so it’s to be expected.
They should really call it something like “Gut Normalization Diet”, since that is exactly what it is designed to do, and was simply refined and evolved toward the goal of reducing intestinal permeability. The theory is that other membrane barriers, not just the intestinal one, are also helped by the diet (because the intestinal one is normalized on the diet, it’s inductive logic that other barriers are normalized as well) - but they don’t have a way to test and measure the other ones directly like they do for the gut. Also, they believe the gut barrier is the most important one anyway so fixing that one solves the most problems directly and indirectly.

The surprising thing they found was just how sensitive the gut is to almost anything that isn’t meat and organs, and how even a tiny amount of something like rice flour in a supplement can trigger a strong immune response in some people, and a strong enough response in the gut in most people to prevent normalizing intestinal permeability - just like how getting a tiny amount of a virus can trigger a strong response, even if you’re unaware that your body is doing lots of stuff to handle it (symptom free). Because of this, they had to restrict eating to just meat and organs for sick people. My strong hunch is that they have a partial-vegetable inclusive version for healthy people just because so many people insist on it or they can’t adhere to the diet long term, or because they are trying to appear more mainstream to other medical sectors to try and get more acceptance. And as a result of only meat and organs, they suggest you get grass fed because you need to be getting enough nutrients, since you can’t be getting them from a typical multivitamin anymore, and even desiccated grass fed organs are not reliable enough nutrient sources for them - which I would agree with for sick people, take no chances until it’s proven from testing/lab results for many people. The 4-legged grass fed meat and organs guideline has many other reasons though, like for example in the US, eggs almost always contain soy - which prevents normalization of intestinal permeability. The same thing goes for the typically very low quality pork in the US. So you may think you’re eating totally correct and not healing the intestinal barrier just because it happens to be the norm for an animal to be eating something they shouldn’t be in your country or whatever, and these land mines are too long to list and expect people to absorb, so to rule out all of the problems, they just advise 4 legged grass fed animals.